Zentyal Forum, Linux Small Business Server

News and Announcements => News and Announcements => Topic started by: jkerihuel on January 23, 2014, 08:08:09 pm

Title: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: jkerihuel on January 23, 2014, 08:08:09 pm
Good evening all,

With our forthcoming Zentyal Server 3.4 community edition based on Ubuntu 13.10 Saucy, we have been working on testing and upgrading all our modules. As for now, Zarafa is one of the remaining module that is not working.

Unfortunately, Zarafa does not provide packages for Ubuntu 13.10 Saucy. We have tried to build the open source edition on our own, but we are hitting compilation issues that blocks the process and prevent from moving further. We have therefore decided to contact the Zarafa team and see if they are willing to provide a package for Ubuntu 13.10 Saucy.

If they don't, we will not be able to include this package in Zentyal 3.4 Server.

I will in any case keep you posted on the evolution of the situation.

Br,
Julien.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: robb on January 23, 2014, 09:01:25 pm
This shows going for non LTS is a BAD idea.
You do realize you are entering a VERY slippery road with a pre beta solution like Openchange instead of a full featured and stable Zarafa?

/edit: edited out unnecessary speculation.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: christian on January 23, 2014, 09:21:56 pm
Intentional or not, it doesn't come as a big surprise  ;)
Well... Zarafa builds packages for LTS only... like previously Zentyal BTW thus it was fully expected not to get any Zarafa package for 13.10 isn't it?

This said, for those wiling to keep Zarafa, it can still be compiled on 13.10 as far as I understand.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: J. A. Calvo on January 24, 2014, 06:50:55 pm
This said, for those wiling to keep Zarafa, it can still be compiled on 13.10 as far as I understand.

No, that's the problem indeed. Zarafa seems to not compile on 13.10 (at least without modifying the source code). Of course if anyone wants to provide some patch or working packaging that could be very welcome :)
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: christian on January 24, 2014, 07:01:19 pm
No, that's the problem indeed. Zarafa seems to not compile on 13.10 (at least without modifying the source code).

Clearer. This was not clear reading the initial post that was stating "Zarafa does not provide package"...
So idea would be, if Zarafa is not dropped, to wait for Zarafa community from where I would not be surprised to see some customization in order to make it compatible with 13.10
But this will not come from Zarafa team, for sure  ;)

At least, if Zarafa is dropped, it will clarify Zentyal portfolio  8) but are you yet ready for this ?
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: J. A. Calvo on January 24, 2014, 10:01:02 pm
Well, in the initial post Julien said clearly: "We have tried to build the open source edition on our own, but we are hitting compilation issues that blocks the process and prevent from moving further."

No problem with the misunderstanding anyway. Also I want to remind you that Zarafa will still be supported in our LTS/Commercial version which is Zentyal 3.2.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: spiral on January 28, 2014, 06:12:56 am
What is gained by upgrading to Ubuntu server 13.10?  Is it just for the sake of being current?
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: jkerihuel on January 28, 2014, 10:19:56 am
What is gained by upgrading to Ubuntu server 13.10?  Is it just for the sake of being current?

Reduce the upgrade gap and inconsistencies across two Ubuntu LTS.

Br,
Julien.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: robb on January 29, 2014, 05:42:13 pm
I can't express enough that the trade off for a _server_ solution of leaving the LTS version of Ubuntu for a bleeding edge version, that is only supported for 9 months, should never weigh as much as the 'smaller gap' between versions.
The point is that the commercial version _does_ stay on LTS so the migration gap must be taken anyway. Going for a less long supported version just does not make any sense.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: christian on January 29, 2014, 06:45:27 pm
Robb,

This has clearly pros & cons.

If goal is to deploy something "live", I mean in prod, community or commercial doesn't matter and you are perfectly right, not deploying LTS or at least thinking that you will deploy every 3 or 9 months doesn't make sense but...
- lot of users are running Ubuntu without any support from Canonical or whoever. Thus LTS or not doesn't matter for such users. What is critical here is more to deploy something stable that you don't have to reinstall every year or even more often.
- not being obliged to wait for the next LTS when the last release solves, e.g. Ubuntu hardware support is a clear added value.
- The bet here seems to be that if you are ready with the last release just before next LTS, then step to LTS will be smaller. Doesn't mean you have to migrate if you run it in prod isn't it ?
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: J. A. Calvo on January 29, 2014, 06:55:30 pm
- The bet here seems to be that if you are ready with the last release just before next LTS, then step to LTS will be smaller. Doesn't mean you have to migrate if you run it in prod isn't it ?

That's exactly the point, if you are happy with a LTS version like 3.2 there is no reason to upgrade. But the great advantage of Zentyal going step by step through all the Ubuntu releases is to provide *better* LTS releases (and Zentyal commercial versions therefore). The reason is simple: the changes from one LTS to another are too big, and if we have to introduce all of them together and in the last moment the quality of the final product is not going to be optional, introducing them as soon as possible not only makes the task easier, but also allows much more time to test those changes and fix any problem they may cause in Zentyal.

I understand that this non-LTS releases issue may be concerning for some of you, but I think you should trust us when we say that this is better for everybody, seriously, we are really convinced about that. And I'm sure you'll see the benefits in the mid term.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: ian on January 30, 2014, 12:00:11 pm
Hello,

Is it not better to solve the tickets for the different versions of Zentyal ?

I still use release 1.4.9 in our elementery school, it is a file and printserver and it works perfect.

I like to upgrade to release 3.2.6 but there are still a lot of problems so it is not possible to restore the configuration, realy needed in case of a diasaster and a reinstall of the server.

Zentyal is a fantastic product, but there must be more attention of the stability of the product and relayable in production mode so it means that the most critical problems must be solved before devlopping a new release.

Upgrading is not Always easy because of changing structures in releases, it is verry important to have a good restore and upgrade component for the configuration other whyse the whole network with clients must be redone, restoring data is not a big problem. We have more than 50 client pc's in our network, so redone the configuration by an upgrade is  a lot of work.

So in the future give a lot of attention on resolving of the impotant bugs, and have in mind that configuration restore to an upgraded server is verry important. Keep the LTS versions as a base every 9 months doing an upgrade in a prduction environment is not the goal.

Thanks and keep Zentyal running in the best conditions.

Best regards,
Ian

Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: christian on January 30, 2014, 01:08:47 pm
Ian,

I'm totally and fully in line with your points. Stability and reliability are the two main points, far before even features. Smoothness in upgrade process is another critical point. So far Zentyal doesn't achieve any of these thus if it matters for you, you have to find one version fitting 100% of your needs and decide to never update. This is what you did with 1.4 and what I do with 2.2

On the other hand, I do understand that there is a need for additional features from time to time and some pressure from potential customers (well, rather potential community users) asking for the very last tool and pushing because another similar product is able to provide something that is missing on Zentyal side  ::)  There is a real competition here  ;)

Because of these, the idea that is to align Zentyal development with Ubuntu release makes some sense assuming, if looking for stability, you decide no to follow this for your servers in prod.
That, to me, where the drawback is: testing server on testbed, meaning not in prod as very little added value because you may not notice some problems and will not be able to measure if this new release fits your expectations in a day to day activity. This is where I'm in line with Robb but I'm afraid there is no middle way. I would say that current release policy will mainly benefit to Zentyal customers and also to community users who are able to resist to the very last release announcement but will also minimize efficiency of feedbacks from community.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: hgeorge123 on February 16, 2014, 05:21:07 am
They should try to have two versions as does having ubuntu lts version that will have a number of defined functions and will only have updates to fix bugs and security, another version to test it with new versions of packages that serve for the coming lts versions. As is currently the Community version is for testing virtually packages not think it's enough time in three months to say that a distribution as zentyal this 100% and something I've seen is that zentyal in solving problems is very slow then get new versions of zentyal not think it's the solution
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: robb on February 18, 2014, 11:26:49 pm
Daily builds of Zentyal 3.4 installer are available for download.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/zentyal/files/Incoming/
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: peterpugh on February 19, 2014, 08:51:20 am
Going back to the original subject title.

Ubuntu 13.10 Saucy Salamander October 2013

Do we have any news on Zarafa as I am presuming if Zarafa is only going to provide LTS releases its one of those "Euston we have a problem" moments.

I have the release date of Saucy above and I haven't checked on the state of Zarafa but if things are lagging such then this will have an effect on the tiered Zentyal development cycle.

Personally I don't care what email backend I use as long as there is support for Imap and SMTP. Also I am more inclined to employ a full opensource product with commercial support offerings than half a product with commercial licensed offerings. I also believe Ubuntu are more likely to prefer such an offering.

Also Ical and multiple domain support is important to me but I am slightly confused on the state of play and exact layout of the OpenChange / SoGo offering.

My personal opinion is that dropping Zarafa is no skin off my nose and I guess the only ones affected are the subscribers to the commercial offering. I guess that might be sooner than later if the disparity between Zarafa and Zentyal releases continues.

I haven't tried 3.4 or any version of Zentyal with OpenChange / Sogo and just wondered if it would be possible to create a blog on the fundamentals of the Zentyal implementation. What protocols it offers and the underlying pieces of software it comprises of?

If it has the usual suspects of Imap, POP, SMTP, Ical, WebDav, CardDav.... then I can't see any problems and MAPI aswell is a superb addition for us poor M$ maligned sufferers :) But I would like a little more information as I am getting ready to take the plunge.


 
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: robb on February 19, 2014, 12:02:29 pm
Yesterday evening I installed 3.4 and the Zarafa packages are not included with 3.4 (as Zarafa is (still?) not compatible with Ubuntu 13.10)
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: half_life on February 22, 2014, 10:05:38 am
I installed 3.4 (daily build ISO)  on a virtual machine locally.  My intent is to evaluate moving up to 3.4 in light of the Zarafa question.  I am agnostic except that I need/want a web based Groupware solution.  Zarafa fits the bill but won't likely be included in current Zentyal distros for the next few months until the next Ubuntu LTS version.  Following that, it might not (read probably not) work in interim Zentyal releases.  This in my opinion will reduce the likelihood  of Zarafa continuing to be an option with Zentyal. 

I have a few choices to make.  I could stay with my current Groupware choice and skip this upgrade cycle while I wait for the next LTS, or go with a not quite ready for prime time exchange replacement.

Staying with what works right now will surely keep meeting my home network needs through the whole LTS cycle I am sure.  It doesn't cover the other purpose that I run Zentyal at home for.  Running Zentyal at home lets me keep track of what works  and what doesn't.  It lets me evaluate what will work for whom, and when it makes sense to recommend it to customers. New and desirable features might be out of reach because of need to stay on the Zarafa product.

The business user who currently has a Zentyal install is more than likely in a similar position.  Will there be feature backports to the LTS version?
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: peterpugh on February 22, 2014, 10:20:24 am
The only thing that Zarafa missed in terms of groupware for me was the ability to assign tasks for a user (delegate).
You could assign then to yourself and tasks where there and it was tantalizing close to being perfect for use.

I am quite excited by the partnership between OpenChange and Zentyal. That should pay dividends for Zentyal users as this is more than Zentyal employing a product such as Zarafa.

I can't imagine long term Zentyal will continue the support of Zarafa irrespective of fitting release patterns.

I am stuffed at the moment as the storms in the UK have caused delays and I can't get broadband for a month! :( . Home is also where I do all my test and evaluating and I am itching to have a look at 3.4.

 
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: Torsten73 on February 27, 2014, 04:11:03 pm
I thing openchange is with the new webmailer a good way, but in the moment and maybe furthermore no replacement for zarafa. There are minimum 2 reasons which i know:
I also noticed a problem in using outlook 2010. I used the settings guide from sogo, the exchange Mail assistant is working and finished sucsessfully, but its impossible to connect to openchange when starting outlook. But thats maybe a bug.
My hope is, that activesync will work till release, but i have no real hope of that.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: peterpugh on February 27, 2014, 05:05:37 pm
I am not really sure whats happening with http://www.inverse.ca/contributions/funambol.html in terms of zentyal.

I am presuming its left out at the moment to cut dev complexity and will eventually be added.

I guess you could try manually with 3.4.

Is funabol going to come on line or is syncml going to be a thing of the past?
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: Torsten73 on February 27, 2014, 09:53:35 pm
like i remember, funambol is not really a coice, because its for symbian and blackberry. For IOS and Android its not really suiteable. And it needs java virtual machine ... http://forum.zentyal.org/index.php?action=post;quote=78208;topic=20265.0;last_msg=78208 (http://forum.zentyal.org/index.php?action=post;quote=78208;topic=20265.0;last_msg=78208)
Syncml is nearly the same. Like sogo says, its still beta and it also needs funambol.

My oppinion is that there will be no way without active sync. Nearly every mobil device today is capable for this and it works without plugins. And its a solution for all PIM, email, cantacts, calendar, todo ...

So i hope that some of the zentyal gurus will find a way to make it work for 3.4, otherwise its (for me) just a playground and technical showroom.
But till now i have no clear answer found, if it is planed with 3.4 to be released. And the time is just to short to think about a wonder  :-\ .

Edit: oh there has been an answer ... http://forum.zentyal.org/index.php?action=post;quote=79688;topic=20630.0;last_msg=79688 (http://forum.zentyal.org/index.php?action=post;quote=79688;topic=20630.0;last_msg=79688)
When my english is right, this means there will be a way with 3.4 but it´s not clear what, because it´s in work state.
Title: Re: Zentyal Server 3.4 and Zarafa
Post by: peterpugh on February 27, 2014, 10:48:01 pm
Apols its been a while since I looked at the Sogo Openchange stuff.

I thought there was an activesync connector, don't know where I got that one from.

Caldav and Webdav it might have to be for now.