Zentyal Forum, Linux Small Business Server

Zentyal Server => Installation and Upgrades => Topic started by: Saturn2888 on August 10, 2009, 03:45:08 pm

Title: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 10, 2009, 03:45:08 pm

Hey all. I said I'd help remake the eBox sidebar, but there's no way to do that without scapping the sidebar and making something new.

Here's what the sidebar looks like now in full: http://www.kevinghadyani.info/files/ebox/eBox%20Platform.html. I've been trying to think up ways to just completely scrap it, but I do that best when I have some sort of discussion going for some reason so I'm here making this thread specifically for that very reason.

Can people please give up some ideas? I am having trouble unless I can do some kind of one-on-one or group chat about this. Whenever I get a job in the business world, it's always to figure out what's wrong with things and fix them in new and innovative ways. Problem is, I usually have people I can discuss things with which is why I'm calling on eBox users to help out.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: SamK on August 10, 2009, 08:52:58 pm

Rather than make specific suggestions at this stage might it be worthwhile considering strategically?  Establishing clear Terms of Reference will act as a guide when conducting the work.

Do the devs support the efforts to redesign the sidebar?  It may be a lot of work for nothing.

Identify and document the problems with the current sidebar.  A simple two column chart may be sufficient such as:

PROBLEM/ISSUE           WHICH MEANS THAT
1                       a)
                        b)
                        c) and so on...

2                       a)
                        b)

3 and so on...

Itemize and document each objective of the redesigned sidebar.  These should be specific, measurable and briefly stated.  These will thereby indicate when each objective has been achieved.

OBJECTIVE               INDICATOR OF SUCCESS
1                       a)

2                       a)

3 and so on...

This is a simple means of helping to avoid the worst parts of "mission drift" in a project.

I hope this helps.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 11, 2009, 12:52:39 am

SamK, I knew you'd be the first to post! :P

The devs thought it was neat I wanted to change things so they're for the idea. We'll see if we can present something they'll want to merge in.

Is there even a way to create some sort of "cloud" or horizontal navigation bar that suits this purpose? The sidebar seems very cramped right now. Now, what did you mean in your examples? Could you give an example using some of the current sidebar properties?

Another change I wanted to make is to have it so same-named areas like DNS and DNS are changed to DNS Server and DNS Settings for instance.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: SamK on August 11, 2009, 11:00:23 am

Quote from: Saturn2888 on August 10, 2009, 03:45:08 pm

Whenever I get a job in the business world, it's always to figure out what's wrong with things and fix them in new and innovative ways.

The suggestions offered are simply a means of formalizing this process. 

The relationship with a client often arises because the client has a need/want.  The client does not normally know what needs to be done to fulfill the need/want. Frequently it is expressed by referring to a problem currently being experienced and effects it has on the business.  This is similar to them suffering a pain. They are able to describe the effect of the pain but not the cause.  They just want the pain to stop.

The next stage is to identify with the client all instances of where the pain is being experienced and the effects these are having.  This enables the scope of the issues to be agreed.

The next stage is where you demonstrate your creativity and technical skill.  Each part of the overall solution you propose addresses the cause of the pain and its unwanted effects as recorded in the previous stage (stopping the pain).  The Indicators of Success are usually obtained from the users of the system and itemizes the specifics of what your solution must do (over and above stopping the current pain).  Once your solution is delivered you are able to tick the boxes with the client and the work is complete.

The suggestions are really a distillation of widely used practices - feel free to adopt or discard them as you wish.  They do not tell you which solution to provide, but are a means of building agreement with a client to deliver one which address the client's needs.  It helps you focus on what is required by clarifying the goals and avoids 'mission creep'.

Quote from: Saturn2888 on August 11, 2009, 12:52:39 am

The devs thought it was neat I wanted to change things so they're for the idea.

This is encouraging.  If the devs support the redesign it indicates they see the current sidebar as needing improvement (something is causing pain). 

Following the model, the next step is to establish and record what the devs and the community view as the general and specific aspects that require improving (describing the pain and its effects).

Perhaps this is a topic on which to invite feedback from both the devs and the community.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 11, 2009, 05:36:16 pm

Well I didn't say dev's can't post :P. I'm waiting for pj and some others to join in on the fun, haha.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: javi on August 12, 2009, 12:45:51 pm

One of the proposals that  I liked the most was not having menu entries that belong to a unique group. Instead of that, it'd be cool to use tags. That means you could tag "mail filter" with "UTM", "Office". We could add links/icons of the different tags on the top bar, and, checking/unchecking "UTM", "Office", "Gateway"... would show/hide the menu entries that are tagged.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 12, 2009, 02:29:38 pm

That's it Javi! Just like Google's Gmail almost. Using lables (tags) to accociate items with the categories they belong to. I made a kind of general mockup of what that entails a few weeks ago shown here: http://www.kevinghadyani.info/files/ebox/eBox%20Profiles.html

I think that's one way then. Checking and unchecking them would be a per-user/admin instance then as in which admins have access to which parts of eBox right? And then I'm sure that also means turning on and off modules just as easily.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: SamK on August 13, 2009, 10:48:12 am

Quote from: Saturn2888 on August 12, 2009, 02:29:38 pm

I made a kind of general mockup of what that entails a few weeks ago shown here: http://www.kevinghadyani.info/files/ebox/eBox%20Profiles.html

In the example graphic the end nodes (shown in green) are a mixture of package name and descriptipons. A couple of examples:
OFFICE->Samba is a package name
OFFICE->Networked Shares is a description of the primary function

COMMUNICATION->Jabber is a name
COMMUNICATION->Instant Messenger is a description of the primary function

If this model is adopted, I would prefer that each end node express the primary function rather than the name as it is more consistent and easier to understand, particularly by new eBox users.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: JAK on August 13, 2009, 01:34:36 pm

Hi!

Is it intentional that VPN is under Security and Infrastructure? Shouldn't it be just under Security?

BR
Jüri Kirch

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: sixstone on August 13, 2009, 02:01:04 pm

Quote from: JAK on August 13, 2009, 01:34:36 pm

Is it intentional that VPN is under Security and Infrastructure? Shouldn't it be just under Security?

Hello JAK,

I think that VPN is a kind of infrastructure technology to provide within your company or something.

Best regards,

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: JAK on August 13, 2009, 02:31:25 pm

Referring to the UTM concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_threat_management (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_threat_management)) the "Security" label should consist of:
- Firewall
- Intrusion Detection
- antivirus
- VPN (no need to put it under Infrastructure)
- content filtering (HTTP proxy and L7)
- load balancing (traffic shaping?)
- Mail filter (anti-spam)

I'm puzzled with the question does the menu need "Gateway" label at all?

BR
Jüri Kirch

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 06:58:15 pm

Gateway mode = SOHO router mode more or less. It's just a basic firewall and DHCP server and maybe a DNS server too.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: SamK on August 13, 2009, 07:39:44 pm

The Network end nodes will be more appropriately located under the CORE branch. 

eBox is, by definition, designed to operate in a networked environment and Network is therefore common to every eBox. 

The items listed under the GATEWAY and INFRASTRUCTURE branches are optional components and not essential to every eBox machine. 

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 07:41:08 pm

Core was something I made up myself. It's the one that contains what's in ALL other eBox configurations.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: SamK on August 13, 2009, 07:49:32 pm

Quote from: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 07:41:08 pm

Core was something I made up myself. It's the one that contains what's in ALL other eBox configurations.

In which case we may have problems with community members thinking the graphic provided represents the finished structure.  Might it be a good idea to design the structure at this stage and obtain agreement on it?

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 07:52:09 pm

Yeah, the graphic is the structure currently in place we want to get rid of. We should, though, make sure to keep with the developer's current vision of 5 compartments, semi-overlapping unless we're given a green light to rethink that too.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: SamK on August 13, 2009, 08:00:01 pm

Quote from: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 07:52:09 pm

We should, though, make sure to keep with the developer's current vision of 5 compartments, semi-overlapping...

The agreement is essential and does require input from the devs (Javi?) but it may be possible to produce a solution that is not "semi-overlapping".

I don't want to belabor this point but this is where the model approach I outlined earlier in the thread is useful.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 08:06:25 pm

I'm all for the functional names rather than the module ones for instance or have the modules also have function names. Then, if someone wanted, they could enable specific parts of the Instant Messenger plugin by enabling Jabber and Made-Up-IM-Server-Name if they felt like it. Right?

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: SamK on August 13, 2009, 08:20:36 pm

Quote from: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 08:06:25 pm

I'm all for the functional names rather than the module ones for instance or have the modules also have function names. Then, if someone wanted, they could enable specific parts of the Instant Messenger plugin by enabling Jabber and Made-Up-IM-Server-Name if they felt like it. Right?

My preference is for descriptive names rather than module/package names.  Using both seems clumsy and confusing.  I would stick with what it does rather than what it is.

I try to view this from the standpoint of a user who is new to eBox, many of these will be Windows users.  They will know what function they are trying to configure and the names of the underlying packages and files are irrelevant to that goal.

Users with some eBox and/or Linux experience may no longer question the use of package names as they have become accustomed with it.  It doen't mean that it must always remain that way.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 08:27:38 pm

I mean, you can have the "what it is" in some kind of advanced configuration if you want to have add-on packages. That's just leaving for future enhancement. I should first ask if the devs are going to use other kinds of groupware or something else other than Samba for instance. If not, I guess that problem's solved.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: SamK on August 13, 2009, 08:43:19 pm

Quote from: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 08:27:38 pm

I should first ask if the devs are going to use other kinds of groupware or something else other than Samba for instance.

It may be possible to design a structure that will accommodate changes such as these.  Again the input from the devs has cropped up.  The redesign is such a central part of using eBox that it will be difficult to do without establishing what it is to achieve.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on August 13, 2009, 10:58:22 pm

I guess so. Javi! :P. I guess we should wait for more information then so we can figure out what there is to work with.

I think the best ideas so far are having some sort of Gmail-like label system where modules aren't put into folders, they just have labels attached. Labels act like folders but it's like, if you look inside of a label, you get anything with that label in there. Those things might also contain possible other labels.

It makes it so you have one module which fits in multiple areas rather than making multiple modules to fit into multiple areas. I'll probably have to draw out what labels comparing to folders is like.

This might help: http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=118708

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on January 14, 2010, 03:23:03 pm

Wow I remember this thread. I think I should see what options there are. I think there could still be some good work done where some things are client-side and some are server-side, but the sidebar has the same name for both. What I like most is how eBox has changed from what it used to be like. The sidebar in 1.2.3, for instance, is much improved over vanilla 1.2 and especially over 1.0. Are there any questions the devs have for we users that would allow us to help make that trusty sidebar better to navigate?

I remember sitting down and trying to work something out and really couldn't come up with anything. The best I can say is fixing it up so there are two sections, client and server. One controls eBox as a server, the other controls eBox as a client. For instance, why have two areas that both say DNS? One is client, one is server. If they're both named the same, they shouldn't be in the same area, or it's really confusing as to which is which especially for a first-time user.

I'd really like to see a picture or make one myself that takes a look at different ways to portray the sidebar. I think the problem doesn't lie in there being a sidebar such that the sidebar isn't utilized as one. Here's another good tip, one I think could be implemented in seconds. I like to open things up in tabs and that proves problematic if the sidebar area I'm clicking on has multiple menus underneath it. When opening that up in a new tab, it just re-opens the dashboard. What I would suggest, to help people figure out what's in what area, even at first glance, is to have some kind of dot or triangle or >> to show that there are menu items underneath that sidebar option people probably won't ever know about until they click on it. That's simple yet effective in detailing what each sidebar option might be. "This has a >> on it. Must mean it has more options underneath meaning it's probably important".

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: poundjd on February 09, 2010, 09:30:49 pm

You know I think that maybe we should take one more step back from this and look at it again.
We have a few different types of services
     1) Services that your users directly interface with -> shares, e-mail, VoIP calls,...
     2) Services that your users indirectly interface with -> e-mail and other filters,....
     3) Services that your users may not even know about -> Firewalls, DHCP, DNS, Infrastructure setup,....

     Further each of these services have many configuration options that need to be addresses.  Also many of these functions have different configuration requirements for different aspects of the service, such as when the eBox is a client or when eBox is the server, or sometimes both.  For new administrators that can be quite confusing.
-jeff

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on February 10, 2010, 08:54:05 am

Yes, I agree with you poundjd. If eBox is really moving in the direction of multiple-eBox infrastructure, you'll wanna organize it in a way where the packages always have what you'd install.

Oh yeah, that's what I was going to note, there should be two sections, client and server rather than each grouping having its own.

Currently some services have their own client or server area (Network > DNS and then DNS), then there are some with both (VPN > Server or VPN > Client). It should be more specific to the service you wanna host. Instead of looking for VPN, you should look for what you wanna do. I want to setup a VPN server with DHCP and DNS right? Then it should be all one package you look at on the screen in the browser rather than a bunch of separate entities.

I would like to see some examples of this in action so we can kind of decide on (as users) what we prefer.

I made an example, but I don't know if this quite captures the idea I'm trying to get across: http://badmarkup.com/ebox/eBox-Interface-Mod-02.png.

I'm really showing off one screen here, but you should be able to click on the numbers and just change them. That tones down the amount of screens you need to go to or click on. Think about all your are seeing here. It's the dashboard, a way to edit network interfaces, VPN, anything just by a single click. You should be able to click on a hyperlink of the network name edit icon and edit all the options of that network including DNS, DHCP, VPN, and others. There needs to be another section for certs obviously. I would really like to see a way to make multiple certificate authorities so each VPN can use a different set of select certs. I wanna see what other people think of this first before I move on and do more examples.

I really think more screens need to be condensed. The interface as it is works, but it's slow and messy and leaves much to be desired. I would really like to have a more stream-lined interface which lets you manage a bunch of related features all on one screen rather than tons of different screens. When setting aliases for example, I'd rather edit a table of aliases so I might be able to copy/paste rather than editing each one individually. eBox should definitely not resemble the click-fest of SOHO routers.

Oo, even better! Manage and modify other eBoxes from your main eBox. I guess, because of business reasons, you could make this for local boxes only. It would be neat to have a way to see not only this machine's server/client networks, but also those of other eBoxes in the home network and modify those from this one screen.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: poundjd on February 11, 2010, 05:21:05 am

The last paragraph is really a product (service) that the company behind eBox is selling.  - So while I like the idea, they may not support development in that direction with out a dependency on the service. - they need to make money to stay open and continue the good work.

The main issue (as I see it) how are we going to organize all of this.  Once that is decided then the screens should just about make themselves apparent.
-jeff

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on February 11, 2010, 06:18:26 am

Yeah, I noticed that when I was writing it which is why I said "for business reasons". That's not such a big deal. Having an easy-to-use all-in-one screen, in my opinion, is better than 10 especially if you're on a slow connection. I'd rather load it once than load it every single time I change something and load the save page which may or may not be reliable depending on my connection.

Because of all the clicking, eBox feels really slow, and I wouldn't exactly call it a very fast web interface system. What did you think of my idea Jeff? There could be more underneath all those interfaces. I highly doubt eBox would normally have more than 8 connections for the majority of users.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: poundjd on February 11, 2010, 06:29:10 am

I agree that the amount of clicking needed to do just about anything is way too much, but finding the right idea to organize around is the first thing needed in my book.

Maybe, one approach is to base the organization around the IDEA of roles (that the server is supporting).  The most efficient method to organize the settings needed to configure a GATEWAY system is most likely quite different from the most efficient method to organize the settings needed to configure a FILE Server.
-jeff

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on February 11, 2010, 09:50:03 am

You know, you're right about that. Then roles are important. What are the roles? eBox says Infrastructure, Gateway, Office, and UTM.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: poundjd on February 11, 2010, 11:28:25 pm

Well with the new Master and Slave arrangement I'd say that LDAP Master is one as well, and it has significant restrictions on what else can reside on the eBox system.
-jeff

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on February 12, 2010, 03:36:53 pm

I still don't understand what that means. My Master hasn't had any issues.

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: poundjd on February 13, 2010, 01:12:52 am

Saturn2888,
   Yes, I have seen your posts, but the documentation says that the MASTER can not have any services running that are dependent on usersandgroups....
-jeff

Title: Re: Remaking the eBox sidebar (discussion help needed)
Post by: Saturn2888 on February 13, 2010, 03:27:09 pm

That's really interesting and good to know. What would be the reason for that?