Zentyal Forum, Linux Small Business Server

News and Announcements => News and Announcements => Topic started by: nachico on March 02, 2012, 06:12:03 pm

Title: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: nachico on March 02, 2012, 06:12:03 pm
Hi everyone,

you might have already seen the news in the .com (http://www.zentyal.com/en/company/news/2012/03/zentyal-small-business-and-zentyal-enterprise-server-editions-now-available/) site about the repackaging of our commercial offering. Until now it was based on Professional and Enterprise subscriptions as well as a series of extra services such as security updates and technical support.

We have realized that although our offering was very flexible and allowed to select just the needed services, it was actually too complex for our customers. So we have simplified it and bundled most services together in two options, targeting very different customer profiles: Small Business Edition for small businesses using Zentyal as a standalone server, and Enterprise Edition for medium businesses with more complex IT environments.

The other change has been semantic: many of our customers did not understand very well the concept of an open source, community software that got commercial services in the form of a subscription. So, despite the fact that we are not eager to separate community from commercial editions, we need to call them that way in order to make our offering understood. The good news is that it is just a semantic change: a commercial edition uses the same source code than community edition but it is bundled with commercial services (support, software and security updates, disaster recovery, etc).

In short, we have repackaged our commercial offering and changed its name, but that's all. I know it is not such an important announcement for the community forum but I just wanted to make it clear. If you have any questions or doubts please ask.

Cheers,

Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: Sam Graf on March 02, 2012, 08:20:23 pm
Very useful information, thank you.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: klein on March 07, 2012, 09:12:59 am
What about the user number limit and VPN tunneling between sites feature? It will be possible connect more than 25 users or tunneling between sites with the Community edition?
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: robb on March 07, 2012, 09:48:25 am
The community edition is not limited to 25 users or amount of VPN tunnels. But the community edition doesn't have the commercial advantages either. (like reports, cloud databackup, support by eBox technologies with an SLA of Next Business Day or 4 hours etc)
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 07, 2012, 10:15:44 am
Hi everyone,

you might have already seen the news in the .com (http://www.zentyal.com/en/company/news/2012/03/zentyal-small-business-and-zentyal-enterprise-server-editions-now-available/) site about the repackaging of our commercial offering. Until now it was based on Professional and Enterprise subscriptions as well as a series of extra services such as security updates and technical support.

We have realized that although our offering was very flexible and allowed to select just the needed services, it was actually too complex for our customers. So we have simplified it and bundled most services together in two options, targeting very different customer profiles: Small Business Edition for small businesses using Zentyal as a standalone server, and Enterprise Edition for medium businesses with more complex IT environments.

The other change has been semantic: many of our customers did not understand very well the concept of an open source, community software that got commercial services in the form of a subscription. So, despite the fact that we are not eager to separate community from commercial editions, we need to call them that way in order to make our offering understood. The good news is that it is just a semantic change: a commercial edition uses the same source code than community edition but it is bundled with commercial services (support, software and security updates, disaster recovery, etc).

I am totally confused at this announcement as there seems very little difference between the previous subscription charges and the current apart from name changes and a short sighted 25 user limit on a reduced service offering?
It would be interesting if you would put a comparison of the previous to the current and justify the above?

Zentyal is a modular service based product and many use it as a simple firewalled router with really good network control. At this level your subscription charges in my opinion are ridiculously high. The previous subscription charges where never service based and the only confusing point was the manner they where presented.

Zenyal Feature List
    Networking
        Firewall and routing
            Filtering
            NAT and port redirections
            VLAN 802.1Q
            Support for multiple PPPoE and DHCP gateways
            Multi-gateway rules, load balancing and automatic failover
            Traffic shaping (with application layer support)
            Bridged mode
            Graphical traffic rate monitoring
            Network intrusion detection system
            Dynamic DNS client
        Network infrastructure
            DHCP server
            NTP server
            DNS server
                Dynamic updates via DHCP
            RADIUS server
        VPN support
            Dynamic routes autoconfiguration
        IPsec support
        PPTP support
        HTTP proxy
            Internet cache
            User authentication
            Content filtering (with categorized lists)
            Transparent antivirus
            Delay pools
        Captive Portal
            User authentication
            Bandwidth limit
        Intrusion Detection System
        Mail Server
            Virtual domains
            Quotas
            SIEVE support
            External account retrieval
            POP3 and IMAP with SSL/TLS
            Spam and antivirus filtering
                Greylisting, blacklisting, whitelisting
            Transparent POP3 proxy filter
            Catch-all account

    Webmail
    Web server
        Virtual hosts
    Certification authority

    Workgroup
        Centralized users and groups management
            Master/slave support
            Windows Active Directory Synchronization
        Windows PDC
            Password policies
            Support for Windows 7 clients
        Network resource sharing
            File server
                Antivirus
                Recycle bin
            Print server
        Groupware: calendar, address book, contacts, etc.
        VoIP server
            Voicemail
            Conference rooms
            Calls through an external provider
            Call transfers
            Call parking
            Music on hold
            Queues
            Logs

    Jabber/XMMP server
        Conference rooms
    FTP server
    Zentyal User Corner for self users info updating

    Reporting and monitoring
        Dashboard for centralized service information
        Monitor CPU, load, disk space, thermal, memory
        Disk usage and RAID status
        Summarized and full system reports
        Event notification via mail, RSS or Jabber
        Bandwidth data usage

    Virtual Machines management
    Software updates
    Backups (configuration and remote data backup)

Many of us (community) use Zentyal in a specific way and would like to use and pay for the services required. If I only use a small subsection of the services available why should I subsidise someone who uses all?!
Also why 25 users as basically many will be forced into either enterprise pricing or like myself at that level self support for free. The current pricing is over double current competitive products such as ClearOS and I would like to know how Zentyal can substantiate this?
The current per server subscription with a 25 user limit is ridiculous from the standpoint of more users than 25. On higher demand networks it would be a logical methodology to partition across several servers that provide specific functions (services).
In my opinion it would seem that Zentyal has shot itself in the foot and lowered its potential revenue. Instead of receiving a large qty of reasonable price subscriptions they will receive a few overpriced ones.
Quite frankly there is only one way I can describe the choice of offering and subscription level and that is brain fart.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: nachico on March 07, 2012, 10:31:30 am
What about the user number limit and VPN tunneling between sites feature? It will be possible connect more than 25 users or tunneling between sites with the Community edition?

Sure. Nothing has changed in the community edition, apart from the label.

The reason for limiting the Small Business Edition to small companies (up to 25 users) using Zentyal as a standalone server (no VPN tunnelling between sites) is because they demand way less support than larger organizations with a more complex IT infrastructure and thus they can have a lower price for the services.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 07, 2012, 10:50:06 am
Firstly I wasn't talking about the community edition. Would you kindly compare the previous subscription charges with the current apart from name changes and the 25 user split there is little difference.

Then when it comes to common network methodology with above 25 users could you explain why you have such a rigid and costly subscription service. RHEL premium levels with longer response times? In fact it looks like you have used their price levels and copied them rather than thinking about the usage and pocket of the community that uses Zentyal? 
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: nachico on March 07, 2012, 10:51:22 am
Hi DogManCat,

thanks for your comments. I will reply briefly.

The previous offering allowed the customer to select the kind of services he would require, but it forced him to foresee the need of support and security updates (among others). This has proved to be a big mistake, as it disgruntled many customers who realized too late they actually would have needed these services.

Moreover, the offering was very confusing for end customers who actually had a hard time understanding the value proposition and they often needed a personal explanation and support to select the right packages.

Well-informed customers ended up selecting either professional subscription + advanced security updates + essential support, or enterprise subscription + advanced security updates + disaster recovery + standard support. These were the packages we have used as a base for current editions.

The limit for 25 users is not an arbitrary one: the vast majority of our customers and users are within this limit.

If you are using Zentyal only as a firewall, which is not the use case where it provides the biggest value, the best two options are either using the community edition (if you do not require support for it) or the small business edition (if you do not use the users module, there is no user limit).

Moreover, having a very low entry-level price might seem a good idea, but we have realized it is dangerous: if it is too low, customers perception is that the service cannot be good. During the last months, we stopped pitching our entry-level pricing (195€/year) and we started pitching our current Small Business Edition price (including support and ASU), as it felt righter in the mind of the customer.

As a personal note, I would like to ask you to refrain from insulting or being too aggressive in your posts, and to try to keep a respectful tone of conversation.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 07, 2012, 11:15:07 am
Well I apologise for my perceived tone but my response is reflective of my opinion.

We have a niche open source product with a rigid (closed) subscription service that seems to be following the Stella Artois marketing racket of being reassuringly expensive.
From a business logic perspective lumping all your services into a monolithic product is contrary to modern business practise. This negates any purchase feedback as your weak products will be buried with the strong.

Personally I don't subscribe to the "It's expensive so it most be good" in the similar vain "Open source must be bad as it can be free".
For me that is a ridiculous notion and a complete misinterpretation of the current economic and technology climate.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: nachico on March 07, 2012, 02:27:07 pm
Firstly I wasn't talking about the community edition. Would you kindly compare the previous subscription charges with the current apart from name changes and the 25 user split there is little difference.

Example:

* Before: professional subscription (195 €) + ASU (95 €) + Essential support (245 €) = 535 €/year
* Now: Small Business Edition 495€/year

Then when it comes to common network methodology with above 25 users could you explain why you have such a rigid and costly subscription service. RHEL premium levels with longer response times? In fact it looks like you have used their price levels and copied them rather than thinking about the usage and pocket of the community that uses Zentyal?

We have not changed the licensing of the software, so the community users have not been affected. Like I said before, all we have done is repackaging our existing services based on the feedback from our customers and prospects.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: Sam Graf on March 07, 2012, 02:36:48 pm
International pricing is probably more art than science. While it's possible to discuss "too expensive" and "too cheap," I think a broad consensus is about the best we could do. Market forces will do a better job of defining the right pricing than we will, as a community, I think.

Beyond the pricing conversation, I find the changes nachio has outlined to be positive and sensible. The old pricing structure, in my experience, made it harder to sell to management in a small business environment. Too much "fine print," so to speak, relative to the alternatives. There is at least some segment of the market where fewer choices is going to make sense.

What is perhaps more important to me is to see eBox Technologies actually adjusting things as they go. Even if I felt that the current direction was a mistake (meaning the shape of the offerings, not the price), I think there is evidence that eBox Technologies is working to find that pricing sweet spot where what they offer has both wide appeal and sustainability. That almost certainly means they are reacting to (paying) customer feedback as well as their costs model. I don't see how they can be reasonably faulted for that effort, but, of course, that's just my opinion. :)
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: nachico on March 07, 2012, 02:37:57 pm
Well I apologise for my perceived tone but my response is reflective of my opinion.

Ok. Please keep in mind that we all need to be extremely respectful on written communication. Otherwise, it is really easy to end up in senseless flames.

We have a niche open source product with a rigid (closed) subscription service that seems to be following the Stella Artois marketing racket of being reassuringly expensive.
From a business logic perspective lumping all your services into a monolithic product is contrary to modern business practise. This negates any purchase feedback as your weak products will be buried with the strong.

Personally I don't subscribe to the "It's expensive so it most be good" in the similar vain "Open source must be bad as it can be free".
For me that is a ridiculous notion and a complete misinterpretation of the current economic and technology climate.

Thanks for your opinion. Our decision was taken after a lot of analysis and thought, based on plenty of feedback from customers and prospects. I can assure you that we have taken good care on being based on solid facts and advice before taking this step. Anyway, we are human and we might be wrong, only time will say.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 07, 2012, 04:03:09 pm
This is it as its all about opinion and thats why I posted. Apologies if my Lancashire dialect is sometimes strong "Brain Fart" is something that makes me smile when explaining a mistake :)

My long term goal is to be providing a Ubuntu based server / desktop environment. I am hampered in this already due to M$ dumping products into my educational / charity arena.
M$ have a very clever ploy here where the next generation are force fed product through very clever discount pricing. If you would visit http://www.ctxchange.org/ then you will see how I am struggling to justify non M$ products.

Then I am looking at a common install of three servers firstly firewall / remote access / proxy / filter this will be partnered by a PDC (prob ldap master) file server and a application server for mail and Web / Intranet. Hardware is quite inexpensive nowadays and by partitioning across three servers I can stay with run of the mill inexpensive components. It works well for me anyway.

I am passionate about Zentyal as it fits my choice of Ubuntu but I am now looking at a subscription price that has me worried. It has me looking at a price which is twice the cost of ClearOS but I don't want to go the CentOS way. This means that I will probably support the servers myself and not give Zentyal a penny which isn't my first choice option. I don't want to kill the hand that feeds me but I can't afford what is on the menu.

I am not going to use Asterisk which must have huge support requirements, I am not going to use the proxy or filtering as there are to many SSL exploits, neither jabber or captive portal.  I doubt I will use advanced DNS, Radius, FTP or Virtual machines in fact there is a lot that I might never go near.
Quite often I will be breaking the 25 user barrier or be expecting in the future, expansion and I don't want to be breaking my budget because I am subsidising some of the few who do use the above!

When you are organising new pricing or packages why not consult the community? Why not ask what they use and what would be applicable. You don't have follow the communities demands but you might find the feed back of value and you might increase the community because they value your transparency on such matters.
 
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: Sam Graf on March 07, 2012, 04:51:29 pm
My long term goal is to be providing a Ubuntu based server / desktop environment. I am hampered in this already due to M$ dumping products into my educational / charity arena.
I have no control over the desktop choice (it's necessary that we use IE and Office, so really no one in our organization can decide to move from Windows without seriously complicating work flows). And with the cloud slowly but surely turning Windows into a device-independent commodity, it seems to me that the benefits of migrating from Windows are diminishing significantly faster than the release cycles of possible alternatives.

But I agree completely with your point that Microsoft charity and educational pricing on the server side significantly hinder making an internal business case for alternatives. I think projects like Zentyal mitigate the situation somewhat by offering a robust bundled solution. If providers can improve their server products to the point that they are transparent "drop-in" solutions for a range of possible real world use cases, it would be easier yet to argue in favor of the costlier solution--low maintenance (i.e., not requiring long-term customizations across product releases), feature-rich "one-stop-shopping" solutions that deliver higher value than the competition.

The alternative is to offer educational and charity pricing, is it not? And that potentially is going to adversely impact revenue and/or the pricing structure, where some customers (or the solution provider) are subsidizing other customers. Sounds fiscally unattractive to the Zentyal project at the moment, to me--speaking my opinion just as another member of the community.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 07, 2012, 05:32:58 pm
The charity and educational pricing is cynical and not an option I propose for Zentyal. Then again subscription is for support services and not product. So that is really going off topic.
It does have an effect on my bargaining power to utilise non M$ product. If you are stuck with M$ Sam then that is your problem and not mine.
I am trying to stress the point from my perspective the current subscriptions will gain them zero revenue and I actually want to Zentyal to be a success.

I say cynical as the educational students and many underprivileged learner is caught in a catch-22 of being able to learn cheaply, but to use expensively. Why we are training especially the underprivileged, packages that they will never own, whilst free perfectly good alternatives exist has been somewhat of a mystery to me.

Free software doesn't mean that it doesn't create revenue from MySQL to Avast antivirus. Avast is free for home users and this means for paid business users that there is a huge pool of bug hunters and viri collators. Ubuntu trading might not be the exchange of cash but it does in some form create value.

If you have chosen a cul de sac of M$ and have no reverse gear then that is your problem, its not one that exists for me. There isn't a business logic that I can't find an open source solution for. When there isn't a ready made solution because its open source the code will usually allow a simple bridge to a solution. I don't need M$ and thats all I am saying, its not part of the argument.

If Zentyal want to provide inroads into the charity / educational arena by subsidies for subscriptions then good on them for there social conscious, but in no way am I suggesting that they should.

Zentyal in essence is a strange product in that its a web based control framework for a collection of "Best of's" in the open source arena. Zentyal is just a façade to the likes of Squid, Samba, Dans... to the linux core and all are freely available. I just want to be able to pick and chose what I use and stay clear of the insurance scam of all-in-one subscription charges.

At least allow me to provide a nominal amount that isn't a donation. I can't go to my clients and ask for donations, but I could justify a one off incident "get out of the shit" subscription.
Say a €100 a server, multiply that by your downloads and compare it to your current revenue.

Just an example but the current scheme is way to rigid and way to expensive for me!
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 07, 2012, 06:15:38 pm
In fact whilst I have been musing over subscriptions I have been thinking that the "get out of the shit" subscription doesn't roll well off the tongue.

Why not provide a "Engage" subscription which is basically a one-off incident subscription which requires ten annual karma points as-well as a nominal amount?
 
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: Sam Graf on March 07, 2012, 06:45:39 pm
If you are stuck with M$ Sam then that is your problem and not mine.
I am trying to stress the point from my perspective the current subscriptions will gain them zero revenue and I actually want to Zentyal to be a success.
And all other comments are either off-topic, other people's problems, not interested in Zentyal success (from our point of view), etc. Sigh ...
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 07, 2012, 07:14:18 pm
If you are stuck with M$ Sam then that is your problem and not mine.
I am trying to stress the point from my perspective the current subscriptions will gain them zero revenue and I actually want to Zentyal to be a success.
And all other comments are either off-topic, other people's problems, not interested in Zentyal success (from our point of view), etc. Sigh ...

Thanks for the smite Sam :)

I don't believe in cul de sac's and there should be no reason to be stuck with a platform. That's just my opinion. I am not saying I am not prepared to talk about the M$ trap and those who fall foul.
When the subject is "New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions" I was trying to keep it in that arena.
If you want to create a thread "Stuck with M$" I will gladly contribute.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: Sam Graf on March 07, 2012, 07:27:46 pm
I didn't smite you. As a moderator, I can make the point by locking the topic. ;)

As for the "stuck with Microsoft" topic suggestion, that's just silly. My point was this only: Not everybody interested in Zentyal success cares about an alternative on the desktop. I am one of those people. I understand that there are others who are hell-bent on sweeping Microsoft out of their offices. Fine. If this is a discussion about Zentyal costs and pricing, then the dynamics surrounding Zentyal's present and future direction on the desktop are part of the conversation. It's that simple.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 07, 2012, 07:42:26 pm
In fact whilst I have been musing over subscriptions I have been thinking that the "get out of the shit" subscription doesn't roll well off the tongue.

Why not provide a "Engage" subscription which is basically a one-off incident subscription which requires ten annual karma points as-well as a nominal amount?
 

Sam whats your opinion on the cost and rigidity of current subscription?
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: Sam Graf on March 07, 2012, 08:25:47 pm
My opinion is that a granular approach to either product (an add-on approach) or pricing (a vertical stack of subscription options) is going to be counterproductive more often than not at this point in time.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 07, 2012, 08:45:48 pm
Can I ask and would you answer with all honesty. Are you going to pay the enterprise subscription?
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: Sam Graf on March 07, 2012, 09:01:48 pm
My situation is complex. I can say that I am actively keeping the option of SBE and DR subscriptions open. As a business decision, the cost, in my case, is less important than our system architecture.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: ichat on March 07, 2012, 09:20:14 pm
first of all let me say that i may have been one of the few to actually complain about the rediculous low pricing on the support side, - from the first day on i could never figure out how zentyal was planning to make profit...   that said, i  previously supported about a dozen clients in the range where MS sbs is mostly used,  all but one had  next bussiness day sla's and most (if not all) where quite a lot more expencive. 

in my view the best way to find out if these prices are good,  the best way is to charge them and see.. if its to high less people will buy the package  if not.. than its a reasonable price.

Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 08, 2012, 10:00:11 am
Reading between the lines its pretty obvious its to high, well from those ambiguous comments I am going to take it as a no from you two.

I thought as much.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 08, 2012, 12:27:40 pm
The pricing is fine if Zentyal are going to provide 100% support. As a total remote package where the support staff just want a buy and forget appliance. Maybe a tad high as my feeling is that lower prices would gain more bulk.

The problem is that many scenario's will have a techie like myself who's bread and butter is the support contract. The current pricing takes a huge portion of my revenue and I have the ability to support the server myself.
Having a self help community also aids self sufficiency and I am thinking that many of the community who are posting questions here are not going to buy a subscription. If they did they wouldn't be posting questions on the site as they would have support that is paid for.

I am looking at the current support options and thinking that the only way I can get revenue to Zentyal is via a support option that in essence negates my own support role. At least I have the honesty that this worries me and I am bold enough to suggest that this will decrease possible revenue.

My argument from the start is the current offerings are rigid and closed and way to high. I also have the honesty to say that because of this and ever decreasing IT budgets I am being forced into a self support role.
Rather than just another niche product Zentyal has the possibility to become a staple diet of the SMB IT infrastructure with a huge amount of possible revenue.

I doubt its going to do it in the current form as the self help community actually detracts from total support options. If Zentyal are going to operate in this manner its slightly bizarre they actually answer questions in the forum as every time they do they are reducing revenue.   
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: ichat on March 08, 2012, 12:47:57 pm
once again you seam to be talking from a perspective from where you have absolutely no knowledge in or understanding of.

if this i your way of trying for revange of somekind than please dont bother, as people should never take into consideration this kind of obvious trolls.

but since we are talking about paying for software, did you ever buy a vallid licence for windows server, or any paid version of linux (like that of clearos,  redhad enterprice linux, ubuntu advanced,  the paid version or zarafa, or anything simular)..
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 08, 2012, 12:55:52 pm
No I never buy software my clients do that and I thinks thats pretty common.

The idea of revenge is just pathetic generally. I am trying to make a point that coupling standard commercial offerings to an open source community project isn't going to work.

Square pegs and round holes and all that.

Commercially my clients bought SBS and I provided the support and thats how I created revenue.

Zentyal is free but its subscriptions impinge on my revenue. There must be a better way, that is all I am saying.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: ichat on March 08, 2012, 01:45:20 pm
if you think that zentyal is a squar pig on your round hole than by all means  hire a programmer and have him/her  make it round,  but trolling about it itsn't going to make your point nore does it help anyone but perhaps your ego..
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: Sam Graf on March 08, 2012, 02:43:23 pm
Reading between the lines its pretty obvious its to high, well from those ambiguous comments I am going to take it as a no from you two.

I thought as much.
Are you replying to me? If so, no, you've taken it wrong. The first question, in my case, and quite naturally, is Zentyal's place, not Zentyal's cost. You asked me if I was going to pay, and you asked me to answer honestly. I can't say I'll pay until prior, more important questions are settled, but I can say (and did say) cost wasn't the deciding factor.
Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: DogManCat on March 08, 2012, 04:09:47 pm
I think it can be generally accepted that no-one is paying if they have the ability to support. This is a huge problem for Zentyals future.
I have been playing devils advocate in a hard line stance for a purpose.
Basically there is no value mechanism for a Linux competent support provider and current subscriptions.

Why would they? I have been trying to make a point, that the increases in subscription are more than likely going to increase leaching.
As for seeing how the land lies with the new subscription structure depends on what could happen to Zentyal if it is a failure?

I am unsure how community and revenue can be coupled? All I know with all honesty that the current changes have made it more unlikely, based on my own economics.
Its on honest question but currently due to my competence level and a self serving community my only requirement to place anything back into Zentyal is via good will.
This has been my argument that the current subscriptions contribute to a hell of a lot of good will!

I really apologise if I have offended anybody in my posts, but I really think someone needs to take a reality check.

Many other Open Source applications deviate from the community with a commercial enterprise product. Zentyal doesn't have that, maybe it shouldn't.
Often certain elements of functionality are withheld from the community version and this creates revenue.

I don't think the Zentyal staff have the likes such as Mark Shuttleworth where huge amounts of funding can be dumped.
There is a lack of mechanisms between the community and Zentyal that return value. I am trying to point this out not because of some vendetta because I am very worried about its long term future.
I must admit I am angry as I have invested a huge amount of effort into learning the product and I have my own roadmap that is beginning to look fragile.

If you look at a modern internet business. They have become successful because of the difference of work. In essence the customer is now the order clerk and stock controller. The pre internet shop has defferred this work to order entry through automated technology. This works because the customer gains value through reduced end cost.

Its quite simple and its being totally overlooked whilst current efforts are providing more separation between community and Zentyal.
I don't understand the Loco's as I can see the benefit for the core members of the Loco but in the long run I can't see any benefit to Zentyal in the long run.
We have a developer section without a supply channel and no mechanism for value?
There are islands of excellence all over the place and their isolation is hardly coherent. Blogs that don't link anywhere. Private IRC channels of communication. The impression of a community led product. A really bad multicultural forum layout. A couple of community linux guru's with a majority of amateurs... The list goes on.

Zentyal is a truly great product but the marketing is absolutely woeful. I think that's what scares me most.
I think I have set a new world record in negative karma over a time period which I was expecting. The social club politics of the Zentyal community have absolutely no interest to me.
I throw my dummy some time ago and left adamant that I will leach Zentyal 3.0 and create my own revenue.

once again you seam to be talking from a perspective from where you have absolutely no knowledge in or understanding of.

if this i your way of trying for revange of somekind than please dont bother, as people should never take into consideration this kind of obvious trolls.

but since we are talking about paying for software, did you ever buy a vallid licence for windows server, or any paid version of linux (like that of clearos,  redhad enterprice linux, ubuntu advanced,  the paid version or zarafa, or anything simular)..


The reality would be hilarious if I hadn't invested so much sodding time.




Title: Re: New offering packages - Small Business and Enterprise Editions
Post by: robb on March 08, 2012, 04:33:43 pm
I think it is time to stop the discussion since it becomes a stance of repeating opinions.

I felt very reluctant jumping into this discussion, so stayed out of it because of a feeling of mixed loyalties. I hope this discussion can take place in the future in a mature and constructive way so the product Zentyal can benefit from this.

topic locked.