Zentyal Forum, Linux Small Business Server
Zentyal Server => Installation and Upgrades => Topic started by: vmb on April 18, 2014, 05:50:02 pm
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I have been testing an installation of Zentyal 3.3.9 on Ubuntu 12.04.4 LTS since the release of Zentyal 3.3 and to be honest I'm still undecided about using it as my main email system.
I am planning on upgrading my Ubuntu 12.04.4 servers to Ubuntu 14.04 LTS at some point soon but I was surprised to find the version of Zentyal in the Ubuntu 'Trusty' (14.04) repositories appears to be version 2.3.21 .
I thought Zentyal and Canonical had some sort of working arrangement in place. If so, it doesn't appear to be working well if neither can manage to get a recent version of Zentyal into the current LTS release. What's going on?
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+package/zentyal-core (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+package/zentyal-core)
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14.04 is already frozen.
deb http://archive.zentyal.org/zentyal 3.4 main extra make a zentyal.repo in /etc/apt/sources.list.d add the above line
3.4 is based on saucy.
wget http://keys.zentyal.org/zentyal-3.3-archive.asc
sudo apt-key add zentyal-3.3-archive.asc
sudo apt-get update
presume its just a numerical change for version
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Thanks for that. This is similar to what I did when 3.3 was on preview.
However, going back to my original point...
Zentyal 3.2 was released on 19 September 2013.
http://www.zentyal.com/press/zentyal-announces-zentyal-server-3-2-major-new-linux-small-business-server-release/ (http://www.zentyal.com/press/zentyal-announces-zentyal-server-3-2-major-new-linux-small-business-server-release/)
Zentyal 3.3 was released on 16 December 2013, nearly three months after Zentyal 3.2 release.
http://www.zentyal.org/2013/12/zentyal-3-3-featuring-microsoft-exchange-server-replacement-is-now-available/ (http://www.zentyal.org/2013/12/zentyal-3-3-featuring-microsoft-exchange-server-replacement-is-now-available/)
The freeze date for Ubuntu 14.04 was 21 November 2013, two months after Zentyal 3.2 release.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule)
Canonical publicised an agreement with Zentyal on 25th June 2012.
http://blog.canonical.com/2012/06/25/helping-zentyal-offer-an-open-source-alternative-for-small-businesses/ (http://blog.canonical.com/2012/06/25/helping-zentyal-offer-an-open-source-alternative-for-small-businesses/)
I believe that Zentyal 2.3-2 was released on 23 July 2012.
http://linux4everybody.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/zentyal-23-2-has-been-released.html (http://linux4everybody.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/zentyal-23-2-has-been-released.html)
So my conclusion is that perhaps Zentyal and Canonical got bored after Zentyal 2.3.21 made it to the repos and have decided to let it go stale. Clearly Zentyal 3.2 could have made it into Ubuntu 14.04 if the Zentyal package maintainer had updated it.
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Zentyal uses a completely incompatible release schedule compared to Ubuntu.
The Zentyal releases are _stricktly_ for the intended Ubuntu version:
Zentyal 3.2 _must_ be installed on Ubuntu 12.04. You _will_ run into problems if you try to install Zentyal 3.2 on another version of Ubuntu.
Zentyal 3.4 _must_ be installed on Ubuntu 13.10. You _will_ run into problems if you try to install Zentyal 3.4 on another version of Ubuntu.
See the official release policy of Zentyal: http://www.zentyal.org/zentyal-release-policy/
I can't stress it more clearly: the release policy is using a _mandatory_ Ubuntu version for a certain Zentyal version. Therefore Zentyal uses separate PPA's as repository.
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Zentyal uses a completely incompatible release schedule compared to Ubuntu.
I did find it very difficult to appreciate why Zentyal management considers this to be sensible, particularly when they are working closely with Canonical. I now completely understand why this is the case.
I can't stress it more clearly: the release policy is using a _mandatory_ Ubuntu version for a certain Zentyal version. Therefore Zentyal uses separate PPA's as repository.
This is easier to appreciate if you consider that Zentyal Community Edition is now a server appliance distribution and not a server application suite on top of Ubuntu. I guess that the last time that Zentyal could be considered a server application suite was when it was at version 2.3.21 . Interestingly, Zentyal does not appear in Ubuntu Software Center now. There is still a transitional dummy package for ebox and I guess this invokes an install of 2.3.21 .
I like the idea of Zentyal, and I like most of 3.3.9, but I don't want to be reinstalling Zentyal every three months. I don't know how long 3.3.9 will be supported with updates now that 3.4 is out. I guess that if I want stability I can either buy the commercial version of 3.5 when it ships or go back to a self built/configured system made from packages in Ubuntu LTS repos.
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Hi,
The agreement between Zentyal and Canonical is mainly about including Ubuntu Advantage support in the commercial editions of Zentyal.
The reason why old 2.3 packages were still in the Ubuntu universe repos, is because those are the last ones to use Samba 3.0. When Zentyal switched to Samba4 in 3.0, samba4 was not yet properly included in Ubuntu. Now they are finally shipping Samba 4 as default samba package, but it still lacks some Zentyal patches to work properly.
In the future maybe we can upgrade this packages to for example include Zentyal 4.0 ones, but basically the thing is we don't only depend on ourselves, all the required dependencies with the proper paches need to be accepted first.
Hope this clarifies a bit.
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I like the idea of Zentyal, and I like most of 3.3.9, but I don't want to be reinstalling Zentyal every three months. I don't know how long 3.3.9 will be supported with updates now that 3.4 is out.
This issue has never been properly answered by Zentyal staff and IMHO this is quite an annoying issue.
For what I experience with my Zentyal 3.2 installs is that I do get all the upstream security updates (Ubuntu updates). I also see several Zentyal module updates now and then (for instance last week there was a users and computers update) I only can't judge if those are updates that also are available for 3.3 and actually are backports from 3.4
It would be a lot more clear to the community if Zentyal devs explain clearly what we can expect from support for 'older' community versions of Zentyal.
So please explain this clearly and add this to the Zentyal wiki for reference.
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I like the idea of Zentyal, and I like most of 3.3.9, but I don't want to be reinstalling Zentyal every three months. I don't know how long 3.3.9 will be supported with updates now that 3.4 is out.
This issue has never been properly answered by Zentyal staff and IMHO this is quite an annoying issue.
That's not true, at least I explained recently:
https://forum.zentyal.org/index.php/topic,21454.0.html
"Remember also that only one community edition is maintained at the same time, so the end of life of Zentyal 3.3 has been reached already."
3.3 stopped being supported as soon as 3.4 was out. And of course 3.2 is also not officially supported for community (it was unsupported as soon as 3.3 was out), and nothing is backported (with the exception of Service Packs, but that's only available for commercial editions), if you see updates coming is probably because they are fixes for some customer.
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Josh, you are right. You did explain it in that post.
But it would be much more clear for everybody if this info is added to the release policy.
I think the community and everybody else who is using Zentyal should know this so a better choice can be made if the community or commercial version is the best choice. In the end it is better for everybody to get accurate information about support from community and Zentyal staff.
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The same info was in the release policy page as well. Last line of the "Software updates" section:
"However Zentyal can only maintain one (the latest) Community Edition at a time to keep the development of new features ongoing."
http://www.zentyal.org/zentyal-release-policy/
Anyway I'll try to discuss if this can be improved for clarity.
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That's not true, at least I explained recently...
... And of course 3.2 is also not officially supported for community (it was unsupported as soon as 3.3 was out), and nothing is backported (with the exception of Service Packs, but that's only available for commercial editions), if you see updates coming is probably because they are fixes for some customer.
Maybe it is clear but still hard to comprehend? It sounds like there is no such thing as a supported, stable community edition. By "stable" I don't mean to imply that you're intentionally releasing unstable software to the community. I mean "stable" in the sense that Debian uses that term.
I know that Zentyal 3.2 bug reports are still being received and Zentyal 3.2 bugs are being fixed (my brief experience with v3.2 bug reporting and fixing has been excellent, by the way), but I take it that those are gifts to the community?
If in reality there are "testing" or "sid" versions of Zentyal available to the community and "stable" (3.2, 4.0, etc) is supported for the community by developer good will alone, that is a scenario that didn't necessarily prove obvious to the community from the provided official video and text information. Maybe that's what robb is sensing.
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This is at the top of every update page in the gui.
Warning: These are untested community updates that might harm your system. In production environments we recommend using the Professional, Business or Premium Editions: commercial Zentyal server editions fully supported by Zentyal S.L. and Canonical/Ubuntu.
I take it as the gospel.
As far as my experience over the years goes, I have no idea if any given update is going to break the community edition.
I have no idea if there's even a supported community edition.
I generally consider any install as frozen as soon as it's installed on hardware and I will generally only update virtual machines.
In short, I've learned not to trust the community edition, I don't think the devs are malicious towards the freeloaders but I also don't believe they really care about the community, it's kinda obvious to anyone who's spent any time on these forums.
For me, I use the community edition for myself and for a few non-profits I support who haven't 2 free nickels to rub together, so I can't afford, anymore than can they, the downtime of a botched upgrade.
Now, I did fire off a 3.3.9 upgrade to 3.4.1, which was also 12.04 to 13.10, and nothing broke, I was really impressed, but I consider that a fluke and I reverted.
From what JCalvo has said in this thread, if I don't upgrade from 3.3.9 to 3.4.1 and I wait, say until, 3.4.8 or even 3.5 comes out to fire off an upgrade, it probably will destroy the install because I didn't upgrade incrementally, obviously jumping over more than one upgrade is a recipe for a real disaster.
Community edition upgrades cannot be considered safe. Period. That's a real shame.
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I actually believe that so much is being lost here.
I believe it is possible to create revenue and create a value relationship between community.
I thought about it for a while and the problem lies with a free product.
Free is exactly what it is, it doesn't have any value.
I am absolutely positive that a free introduction of a say 6 months or a year would allow people to become part of a community.
I absolutely believe in community and many head software development by the user.
The user is the user and there is no other efficient model.
I believe it should be easy to contribute and share in a free product.
I also believe that would make a very strong efficient product.
The side affect of this would be revenue, possibly a lot more than current subscriptions to an obvious poor product are realising.
Many would contribute, but for some others who are busy or what ever then a modular subscription for both software and services would be a perfect balance.
Open source and a Bazaar offering can generate revenue, can provide more efficient, higher quality more effective software.
I know that and I apologise but I think also I have lost faith.
Actually I think most know I have lost faith, but for some reason i keep trying.
Of the above there seems to be nothing, harness the community. I am blue in the face as surely someone can see the advantage to this.
Originally Zentyal presented itself as a meritocracy, which sadly has been retracted.
The pure idea's of leaderless meritocratic leadership purely by contribution was such an amazing idea.
Its sad as its not just Zentyal, part of the original opensource movement had elements of those ideologies.
Opensource generally is being regurgitated into the same singular command structures guided purely by economics.
Eventually the product gets lost, despite great idea's. That is the sad historical fact of human nature.
I guess it takes it great leap of faith to be purely product minded where control and hierarchy is of no consequence.
If you had the product, trade name and the faith just to try. Wow actually in the long rung actually the benefits and returns could be unparalleled.
https://forum.zentyal.org/index.php/topic,20886.0.html
Have a read as I don't have a complete solution and that is the whole point.
How can a community lead product provide value?
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Community edition upgrades cannot be considered safe. Period. That's a real shame.
At least the situation is becoming clearer. If I substitute "development" for "community" it all falls into place for me. Maybe I was just slow to see it correctly because I misunderstood the intent of Zentyal's community edition.
People opting for the rolling release development edition have the valuable benefit of long-term official support. The rest will have to decide how best to approach Zentyal without relying on a community edition in the traditional sense. That complicates things for people like me who thought that a community edition would serve as a good test case. But, that's life.
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I would like to emphasize this paragraph on the release policy page:
It is important to remember that open source projects run by businesses are two-way streets. On one hand, Zentyal invests continuously resources in product development and bugfixing. On the other hand, administrators who choose to deploy Community Editions are expected to invest some of their time (instead of money) to maintain their systems professionally. If a user has a Zentyal Community Edition in a production environment, he/she is expected to have a testing environment where the upgrade is first tested and if any issues arise, to report them to Zentyal. The upgrade in a production environment should not take place until all the pending issues are fixed and the process is flawless.
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I would like to emphasize this paragraph on the release policy page:
That part isn't unclear to me. What took time to sink in was the rolling release nature of community edition, meaning that this time investment for maintaining a system professionally recurs every three months, or four times a year. For all practical purposes, the test-learn-deploy cycle is non-stop. That's obvious to me now, but it wasn't at first. I retained the idea of a stable community edition option somehow.