Author Topic: Time to resign  (Read 6711 times)

robb

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Time to resign
« on: August 16, 2014, 09:44:52 am »
It is clear the Zentyal project has taken a drastic turn in features and goals. These changes are made because of a change in company strategy.
Even though these changes are understandable from a company point of view, it is not the in line with a lot of community members needs, including mine.

In the years I have been active in the Zentyal community I have tried to focus on that community and tried to get more people to join and more importantly, get involved.

Unfortunately I feel I was pulling a dead horse.

Until now, I could bring up the effort to go on because I believed in the Zentyal project. With the drastic changes, the believe in the project is a still there, but it absolutely abandons my personal needs for an easy to manage SBS server.

An other reason to stop is the lack of company support towards the community. In my opinion, to create and sustain a thriving community, there is a need of professional community support. Professional support demands a full time community manager that actively builds the community. The company decided against such an investment and the result is a userbase with limited knowledge and a lot of questions.

I wish to thank the Zentyal company for the great product and the years I was allowed to be close to the project. Especially I want to thank Ignacio and Heidi for their hospitality and friendship when I was in Zaragoza.
At the moment I do feel very sorry I have to make this decision but I think it is in the best interest for both the project and me to make place for new community members.

Finally I kindly request to remove my moderator status and revert my account back to simple community member.

Best regards,
robb

ian

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2014, 10:00:27 am »
Thanks Rob for your work for the community over several years.

Best regards,
Ian

StuartNaylor

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2014, 10:01:51 am »
Robb whilst your still moderator and I know you are always professional.

Is there something we can do get some people just to pluck the spam from time to time or have you a new moderator in mind?

Stuart

Escorpiom

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2014, 08:47:17 pm »
Spam plucking is no problem, I've done that until now and will keep plucking for the time being.
I can't ban users though (lucky you, Stuart! ;D) so I'll just report the account to Zentyal staff.

Robb has a better way of saying things, I share his views 100%, nothing to add or comment.
In the near future I will change my old Zentyal 2.2 for a different (non Zentyal) solution, at that point in time I will also retire as a moderator.

Cheers. 
   
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Blanks & capitals = avoid it and you'll avoid problems...

StuartNaylor

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 04:25:36 am »
OK,

Am I missing something here, is there something more that I don't know?

Probably at a time when Zentyal needs a community your all abandoning ship?

Personally I like what Robb is doing as he is just dropping the moderator title, he didn't say he was leaving Escorpiom.

I like this because the community should be a free flowing exchange of idea's without people wearing hats of importance.

Probably good that you can't ban users and its a testament to Robbs patience that I am still here. :)

"We don't want a load of noobs telling us what to do!" the reply after my true felt belief we should always consult the community.

Come on Robb spill the beans, I would make a punt that your as isolated as the rest of us and no more special treatment?

Its good that your not leaving and its good that the community will all be a level playing field.

It would be great Robb if you have any spare time to maybe have a look at the Zbuildtools so modules can be installed without the product binaries.

The devs would probably welcome your input whilst I might be shunned (can't blame em)

I could do the setup of Zarafa and hopefully with minimal work the interface part of the Zarafa module could be resurected.

I will do the scripts and stuff hooks and changes for enable / disable and maybe as a community we might be able to supply something.

I think at first glance Zarafa might seem to impinge on OpenChange but because of so much development and to allow a migration path actually I believe the opposite.

If you are all going to jump ship my question still remains is there a way to do a round-robin on users for spam plucking.

In fact the report to moderator can we automate it so we all can be moderators whilst none of us wear the hat and do the dance of importance?

Stuart.

 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 05:21:42 am by StuartNaylor »

Escorpiom

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2014, 05:28:20 am »
Probably good that you can't ban users and its a testament to Robbs patience that I am still here. :)

Well, actually it was the other way around. We voted, and I voted for you to get another change :).

I'm not jumping ship, but it is a simple fact that I don't see myself using Zentyal 4.0 or above.
Without any practical experience to share, it will be hard to be of any use for the community.
The only coding I do is in AutoIt, still rather basic and nothing compared to maintaining Zentyal modules.
Prove me wrong and I'll reconsider.

Reporting spam can be done already. Every post contains a link "report to moderator"
A lot has been done already to make it more difficult for spammers to abuse the forum.
Further automating should be done at software level, in this case Simple Machines.

Wearing the hat and doing the dance - fun for a day or two perhaps.
I've been a moderator here for more than two years, but on other Internet fora for more than fifteen years.
It's not always easy to keep up and being there for the community, day in day out.

Cheers.     
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Blanks & capitals = avoid it and you'll avoid problems...

StuartNaylor

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2014, 06:07:15 am »
I am not criticising anyone really, just a thought that we should automate simple machines.

You know me and my Opensource Bible I promise to undergo zealot counselling. 

Maybe on a profile level, post level, karma level then if a few click report to moderator its hidden pending deletion.

Many thanks for the second chances and apols for the drunken stupid posts that it is lucky that I am still here.

Many thanks as I went through a bit of a rough patch. Will have quite a story to tell one time :)

Personally the development path required to add functionality adds a barrier to making Zentyal extensible.

Not sure why they force such a niche and intensive solution for 3rd party offerings.

Have a read of https://forum.zentyal.org/index.php/topic,22952.msg88359.html#msg88359 as I think that would be easy to accomplish for Zentyal.

Then us as a community could really go to town on implementing so many community mods.

Many Thanks

Stuart

 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 06:11:59 am by StuartNaylor »

fasttech

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2014, 07:56:18 pm »
Zentyal made a working, full featured sbs solution available.

Now, it's been butchered and morphed into something new, an openchange gui it appears.

So now, the suggestion is that the community, rebuild the old, from scratch, a community the developers appear to have abandoned years ago.

I don't see that as something I can justify investing in.

As per Zarafa, I tried it a couple times with a couple of groups and it was problematic and not liked, so I can't see being any help there.


StuartNaylor

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 06:03:51 am »
I think we need some clarification from Zentyal as maybe I am in the dark as usual.

Zentyal never made a fully working, full featured sbs solution. The attempt to make it was there but for me it was never stable enough to use in production.

I am not knocking Zentyal as wow with a small team of experts this was a massively ambitious project.

I can understand why they may feel the need to concentrate on a smaller core.

I can also understand why many don't think its worth investing in.

https://forum.zentyal.org/index.php/topic,22671.msg88275.html#msg88275

I don't think I have ever seen an Opensource company ever just say what the contents of that message says.

Usually the idea of forking is from the community but the precedent set by what is said seems to point to "We have our own agenda". "If you want to do something different we will not stop you" "It will not be part of our project".

The zarafa module was just one I picked I also did some work with round-cube and I guess maybe they are right even though I am totally bemused.

XP EOL threw a complete spanner in my Samba3 ability with newer versions of windows requiring AD to provide any real form of sysadmin.

I always saw Linux and samba as a professional alternative to M$ and not just some hotch potch of using Home versions on a network.
I would be laughed at if I went out to some clients and offered Home versions of windows. Yes it would work but the image it sets.

I am still very much stuck with windows desktops this is a devil they know scenario of clients and users and frustrating at times.

Samba4 is my get out of jail card as its an opensource linux platform that as it matures I expect it to offer more in terms of interoperability.

Samba4 opens things up and it was always the reason why I initially went with Zentyal.

Its great that JK has come on board with Zentyal and absolutely superb that openchange is offering a 100% exchange replacement.

My own opinion would be that it would be fantastic to have a 100% exchange replacement that simultaneously supports industry standards of imap, caldav, webdav, pop, ical and so forth.

Because openchange is based on opensource that offers these natively you might understand my confusion to why these are being turned off?

Surely one of the massive advantages of openchange is that it can be a bridge to industry standards and an essential step out of M$ lockin of exchange and outlook?

Surely someone must see if that you are going to enforce a M$ only style offering many might think that actually I might as well use M$.

I work in non-profits, education and M$ dumps it product here so it isn't a matter of cost.

I am desperately trying to make in roads with libre-office as to be honest teaching my kids a commercial platform of office whilst perfectly good alternatives are available is distasteful to say the least.

Outlook is very much the same and great that you support it, but honest please.

I am not trying to cause waves but someone is having a brain fart, please I am positive that again your direction is closed only to one solution.

Opensource is much more than just having public code it is open for choice.

Please don't just tell us to fork off.   
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:11:17 am by StuartNaylor »

J. A. Calvo

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 08:45:10 am »
Zentyal made a working, full featured sbs solution available.

Now, it's been butchered and morphed into something new, an openchange gui it appears.

Please look at the list of modules availables on 4.0:

antivirus
ca
dhcp
dns
firewall
ha
l2tp
jabber
mail
mailfilter
network
ntp
objects
openchange
openvpn
printers
samba
services
software
squid
trafficshaping

Do you really think that's just "an OpenChange GUI"?

And remember that the Zentyal framework is still completely generic and extensible, nothing prevents to add other third-party modules on top.

It's just that as Stuart says in his above post, we can't get a rock solid product if we don't focus on a smaller set of modules officially maintained. This is about quality vs quantity, and for a server, I definitely choose quality.

Remember also that alternatives and documentation will be provided for the missing features.
Zentyal Server Lead Developer

StuartNaylor

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2014, 11:00:11 am »
Look I applaud you guys taking all this stick, because if it is not a solid foundation doesn't matter how many stories it has.

If you where going to do one thing that was totally Zentyal and not dependent on other packages then this would make such a difference.

Firstly the user manager we have lost the hooks for user changes, adds and deletes.

Then make zentyal easy add a menu editor and form editor.

That the community could use standard ubuntu packages where forms have data fields that can be called in scripts assigned to buttons.

Firstly Jose the Zentyal object model has little documentation, it isn't simple and its not static.

Packaging modules means they need to be repackaged for each update and release.

Its a lot of hard and not really necessary work.

Please also have a look at sticking zentyal in a container (lxc whatever docker) maybe future reference but would be a massive plus to a pseudo all in one.
It would be an all in one but the complexity separated at the network level because of the containers.

 



« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:09:42 am by StuartNaylor »

nachico

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2014, 11:21:55 am »
Robb, thanks a lot for your collaboration during these years, you have been a valuable asset in this forum.

Let me reply to a few of your comments.

It is clear the Zentyal project has taken a drastic turn in features and goals. These changes are made because of a change in company strategy.
Even though these changes are understandable from a company point of view, it is not the in line with a lot of community members needs, including mine.

Being an easy-to-use gateway or UTM is nothing new. There are other OSS projects doing a great job there. There is little point on wasting efforts in yet another gateway/UTM. However, there is no other OSS project implementing a MSFT-compatible backoffice. Most of the community members understand and support this re-focus.

The company is stopping investing time and effort in the gateway/UTM modules. There is nothing preventing community members to take responsibility for these orphaned modules. This is the OSS darwinian model at play. If nobody takes the lead then it's because the modules were not so necessary.

An other reason to stop is the lack of company support towards the community.

Sorry, this is not true. Like in any OSS project, nobody has the contractual obligation of maintaining it or continuing its development. The right thing to do is, if the main developer stops maintaining a project or a part of a project, he/she should try to hand it over to someone else. That's what we have done. AFAIK, only Stuart has taken the lead on one module. If there is no interest in the rest of the modules is because they were not really necessary.

I wish to thank the Zentyal company for the great product and the years I was allowed to be close to the project. Especially I want to thank Ignacio and Heidi for their hospitality and friendship when I was in Zaragoza.

You are welcome. I wish you all the best.
CEO at Zentyal

nachico

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2014, 11:27:14 am »
Usually the idea of forking is from the community but the precedent set by what is said seems to point to "We have our own agenda". "If you want to do something different we will not stop you" "It will not be part of our project".

I can understand that you got that impression, but the message is rather "We are very happy that you want to maintain one of the dropped modules. We have heard this story before and so far nobody had the guts to do it seriously. We have wasted too much time and effort in the past with other community members who seemed promising but then didn't do anything. Sorry for being skeptical but we need to see in order to believe. Show us the working code and then we can talk."
CEO at Zentyal

StuartNaylor

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2014, 11:37:07 am »
Nachio, this is no way any negative response to your reply.

I did try before so just got a bit disheartened same as the other member who tried with LTSP.

If the community supports the idea then hell yes.

If the community can collaborate and get involved then 100% I will.

If not then there is no point.

I still think instead of modules just give us a menu and form editor.

The scripts language and object model can be of the community but via a zentyal interface.

Web wise the dev skills you have are top notch and I am sure this would just explode into options and interoperability.

So who's in irrespective of skill sets and level?

I am glad the oppisite is true and that Zentyal are interested in the community so we as a community need to collaborate.

Please have look at https://forum.zentyal.org/index.php/topic,22332.msg88121.html#msg88121 and I will answer any questions or adopt other better methods.

Zentlets are they way to go not full blown packages. Maybe Zripts ( :) )

« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 12:51:39 pm by StuartNaylor »

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Re: Time to resign
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2014, 02:00:59 pm »
If there is no interest in the rest of the modules is because they were not really necessary.

You may be right, but it also may not be that simple.
  • Not everyone agrees that maintaining modules here is the best way to see the original product emphasis persist.
  • The realization that Zentyal has shifted focus could easily not yet be universal.
  • Zentyal is a non-trivial product written in Perl. Not everyone can just jump on that bandwagon.

You are right to require action and not just talk from the community (whatever that community might be). And the company is right, and has a right to pursue success. And yet, if there is genuine interest in and respect for the past community (including the developers) and the original vision, I think that the tone here ought not be unnecessarily dismissive of either people or product. Doing otherwise contributes nothing positive to any good faith effort to hand off the original project to others.