Author Topic: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?  (Read 12711 times)

christian

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2013, 09:04:08 pm »
The current license isn't representative of real world prices.

I won't comment this as this is pure marketing stuff that has to be discussed between Zentyal and customers but, from my viewpoint, not between customers.


Quote
Hardware is really cheap and partitioning services across a few servers makes a network much more robust.

I do agree but don't understand why you don't rather go this way if it brings robustness you need (and trust me I fully share your comment  ;))

Quote
There isn't even a domain price. Its just too monolithic and for many hard to justify the cost.

Again, this is marketing stuff. I can't comment. My feeling is that maintaining, at Zentyal side, different costs for different configuration will just be a nightmare. Then, as OpenSource is quite often understood as "freeware" by our managers, I do agree that justifying cost when one suggest open-source based solution is quite, not to say very, difficult.
Of course, you know that achieving almost same level of feature can be done installing your own components, for free  ;D
This will however not get rid of administrative overhead and will take more of your time in term of support and maintenance. There is also a cost for this  ;)

rikkan

  • Zen Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2013, 09:13:10 pm »
it'll be interesting to see whats announced after the conference next month, but it looks like there might still be hope

Edit, the pitfall of rewriting a message 4 or 5 times before posting it is that sometimes it dosn't make any sense by the time you're done... i'll try again

I have a feeling that openocean made an inspired choice for the leadership of zentyal development.
http://www.zentyal.org/2013/04/zentyal-appoints-julien-kerihuel-as-chief-technology-officer/
http://www.openchange.org/

Have a look

What is needed and I think its more or less happened with 3.2 is a stable platform to get zentyal offerings and 3rd party offerings in a marketplace such as google play or the app store and really let zentyal fly.

Alfresco or Liferay could provide sharepoint but we need someone to supply it.

If Zentyal controlled the market place then like the previous they can create revenue. It would be really easy to provide a certificate authentication service and provide solutions for free, commercial and any other offering you would like to think of.

That looks interesting, perhaps there's some hope of an announcement / shift in direction being announced at the conference next month.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 09:56:50 pm by rikkan »

christian

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 09:19:22 pm »
Hope for what?
I'm a bit lost. Is there any special expectation that will dramatically change what we are currently discussing?

Or are you mainly focusing at limitation with "free" Zarafa and hope that Openchange will get rid of this?

BrettonWoods

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2013, 09:40:22 pm »
I am just going to speak for myself.

Anything ridgid, monolithic that doesn't encourage innovation from multiple sources that is about control will eventually fail.

My thoughts are that currently Zentyal is following that path.

It needs a redirection on its licensing and how it is licensed and offered.

Its not just about openchange and its not about a plethora of free solutions out there with very few licences.

Just look at the pricing when most of it is available free, also look where the market place is and what google and m$ cloud solutions will be.

It just doesn't add up.

Rikkan definately get intouch about the partner program as I think you will be happy.

For in house staff who are trying to justify their wages... Mmmm its a shed load of money for what might be one incedent that I couldn't fix in a products life time.

Thats the problem as there seems to be this assumption that we want it for free. No we want to subscribe, but something that we can afford and something we deem sensible!

christian

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2013, 09:51:57 pm »
Thats the problem as there seems to be this assumption that we want it for free. No we want to subscribe, but something that we can afford and something we deem sensible!

1 - You're perhaps not part of those but I'm totally convinced that most of users deploying Zentyal go there because this is opensource and therefore it should be supported for free.
2 - I understand your point but don't you think this is rather matter of commercial negotiation between you and Zentyal ? What I mean is: do you think that Zentyal forum is the right place to discuss or challenge Zentyal marketing and strategy ? Well, perhaps this is the right place but I won't discuss it  :-X
3 - I really prefer to focus on technical aspects only. Not that money doesn't matter but this is not my job neither my skill.

rikkan

  • Zen Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2013, 10:08:03 pm »
Personally i always prefer interacting with company on their forums where possible, and to that end think its the appropriate place to discuss all things zentyal, with the caviat that this board probably isnt (but then there isn't a general chat / offtopic one at present).

At the end of the day they're a private company, and entitled to charge / do whatever they like with their products, and no ammount of self-important whining here will ever change that. On the other hand, its often benificial to be able to gain consensus amongst other users before bombarding the company with ideas / demands. Also, forums have the benefit of being public, which gives the impression that its less likely for a company shrug things off than if they were presented with the same topics individually.   

BrettonWoods

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2013, 10:11:52 pm »
I will tell you honestly. For 2 years I would of provided somewhere in the region of £200 for my installs.
That would of worked for me.
I wanted to provide as I value effort. I value opensource and realise that beer isn't free.

Zentyal missed out on a couple of grand because there licensing made the solutions too expensive.

I am a sysadmin who only requires insurance for the odd occasion or death. At the current prices I will gamble that death or the odd occasion will not happen.

:)

I quit Zentyal with 3.0 and moved to my own setup's with webmin. I also could build from ubuntu. Zentyal is a great admin console that makes admin so much easier and quicker. Then again it only takes a couple of installs and the cost starts making my webmin or vanilla ubuntu offerings much more cost efficient.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 10:22:00 pm by BrettonWoods »

christian

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2013, 10:44:18 pm »
I quit Zentyal with 3.0 and moved to my own setup's with webmin. I also could build from ubuntu. Zentyal is a great admin console that makes admin so much easier and quicker. Then again it only takes a couple of installs and the cost starts making my webmin or vanilla ubuntu offerings much more cost efficient.

I fully share.
I made it the other way around, having deployed my own infrastructure based on components like posttfix, squid, LDAP ... then decide to look at eBox (even before Zentyal) and I liked this concept. But as far as cost matters, you're fully right, or at least I share your view, your own installation is cheaper. Does it offer same level of service especially when you are out-of-office, on vacation or if you have multiple servers to maintain.
As you say, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Then, like for cloud or for RAID design, the "cost efficient" concept is something that really depends on your organization, your needs and you capability to maintain or not your IT landscape at the expected level.

I'm not saying Zentyal is perfect (I've quite a lot of disagreements with Zentyal current design) but at least what they have set up is consistent and fits SMB's demand, for what I understand.

As SBS replacement, I think this is currently one of the best solution available.

BrettonWoods

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2013, 10:56:24 pm »
I think the zentyal solution is great and with 3.2 and current direction things are looking tremendous.

My whinging and dictate isn't about that. I honestly believe that Zentyal is missing revenue.

I believe a modular approach allows us choice of configuration and also returns feedback to what is of value.
I think the current price means that many choose to go free and this means lost revenue.

I also think I would purchase per incident tickets. I think there are a lot of things that would make zentyal for situation more financially viable to provide revenue.

I honestly believe the current rigid structure is probably losing Zentyal money. There are a lot of different providers with different structures and this one for all misses so many.

Thats all and I am honest enough to say it.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 10:59:22 pm by BrettonWoods »

robb

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2013, 10:40:54 am »
I think you are making a 'thinking error' or at least compare apples to pears when you set the license costs of a MS SBS server next to the Support contract of a Zentyal Small business edition.

License costs of a Zentyal server are 0 (ZERO)

If you want support on a Zentyal server you pay an anual fee. Together with the support you receive additional services like full Zentyal cloud services.

I haven't tried if it is possible to use a fully licensed Zarafa instance on a community Zentyal server. If this is possible, you could do without a Zentyal support contract.

Bottomline: a SBS support contract comes at EUR75,- per month incuding 25 Zarafa licenses. I don't know how it is in UK but here in Holland and Belgium EUR75,- is about 1 hour work for a hired sysadmin. I think you will save a bundle on hired hours by having a support contract.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 10:46:45 am by robb »

nachico

  • Zentyal Staff
  • Zen Samurai
  • *****
  • Posts: 338
  • Karma: +31/-1
    • View Profile
    • Learning To Fly
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2013, 12:07:13 pm »
Hi everyone,

good and interesting thread. FYI, at our Summit (http://summit.zentyal.com/), in just one week, we are going to publish the first technology preview of Zentyal OpenChange. This is a new module, that will be published in the new alpha version for the community edition, and which implements a perfect native replacement of Microsoft Exchange. MS Outlook users cannot make the difference between MS Exchange and Zentyal OpenChange. Zentyal integrates Samba4, so it is also natively compatible with Active Directory. With this addition, Zentyal becomes a complete and native replacement for Windows Small Business Server (which is now discontinued).

We will continue offering Zarafa for those customers who prefer that solution, but OpenChange is the best alternative for customers willing to migrate away from MS Exchange, as there is no change for their users and the migration from MS Exchange is just 3-clicks away.

Cheers,
CEO at Zentyal

qsnap

  • Zen Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2013, 12:35:07 pm »
That's a great news.  :)
i accidentally posted this on other thread, deleted from there and now adding here. sorry for that.

My understanding before was, the cost of zentyal SB server is 495€?  http://www.zentyal.com/pricing-editions/.
as robb correct me, that basic small business server is free to use from zentyal? and the support cost is 495€.  and just need to buy zarafa mail server to work with zentyal.

This is quite a good configuration to save against MS, but obviously how anyone can manage zentyal on their own? it looks easy to configure and manage, but linux has its own world.

BrettonWoods

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2013, 12:50:56 pm »
What I am saying is that I would like to contribute. What I am saying is that there is only one method to do this and currently that is way beyond my goodwill.

My argument is that Zentyal are missing probable revenue because the support option is monolithic.

I guess where I am crossing the line is that with 3.0 we have seen a rolling product where it didn't work. Personally I couldn't consider it a stable release, I have not had the confidence to run it in production.

As a consultant it was M$ who throw the spanner into my works as my clients requested Win7 and they removed NT4 domains support from the equation.

I used to provide Opensource server solutions and a combination of M$ and a seriously ropey 3.0 release lost most of my business. My own fault as well as generally the requests to shift to a M$ AD controller was refused.

I guess its a matter of confidence but after 3.0 and the manner that updates came out where things worked then didn't work without making configuration changes has it at a low.

Also when it comes charging €75 per hour, you wouldn't have any jobs, would you. English speaking unfortunately but I am willing to learn.

You asked so I am just being honest, but after 3.0 and its manner of release I don't have the confidence at the moment to run without some form of response. You had bugs and you where not releasing information to the community. It was a disaster where the five servers I had and contracts are no longer. Maybe I undervalue myself but the upshot was that it cost me £30,000 a year.

I work with small business's and what I do is I install a server and it works. Usually I don't need support but I am thinking in two ways.

Yes I would like to purchase a per incident ticket just in case, I might be on holiday or whatever. Also I would like to purchase a ticket because it might not have anything to do with me. It might be the plain fundamental fact that there isn't a chance it will work.

Also from last time it seemed to be specific modules. Again it irritates me that the support of a router solution costs the same as a full office server solution.

So after a lot of moaning my thought path is that actually opensource isn't about free software. Its a radical business model that has huge possibilities from a plethora of revenue schemes. It annoys me that many opensource projects have revenue schemes that echo commercial closed source methods whilst so much is possible.

Also due to the unique nature of Zentyal being a collection of 3rd party opensource solutions with a common admin interface I feel this all in one support option does not give the choice that I thought opensource was supposed to represent.
 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 12:54:04 pm by BrettonWoods »

ProNetic.dk

  • Zen Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2013, 01:11:01 pm »
Hi everyone,

good and interesting thread. FYI, at our Summit (http://summit.zentyal.com/), in just one week, we are going to publish the first technology preview of Zentyal OpenChange. This is a new module, that will be published in the new alpha version for the community edition, and which implements a perfect native replacement of Microsoft Exchange. MS Outlook users cannot make the difference between MS Exchange and Zentyal OpenChange. Zentyal integrates Samba4, so it is also natively compatible with Active Directory. With this addition, Zentyal becomes a complete and native replacement for Windows Small Business Server (which is now discontinued).

We will continue offering Zarafa for those customers who prefer that solution, but OpenChange is the best alternative for customers willing to migrate away from MS Exchange, as there is no change for their users and the migration from MS Exchange is just 3-clicks away.

Cheers,

Great news!
Best Regards
Dan Nimand Gaardbo
CEO
ProNetic
www.pronetic.dk

robb

  • Guest
Re: Zentyal server is replacement for MS SBS ?
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2013, 01:28:42 pm »
It would be interesting if/how migration from Zarafa to OpenChange on a Zentyal server will be possible....