Request Clarification of Update Default Action

[SamK]

I am confused about the process by which eBox is updated and hoping to obtain some advice.

Software Management-->System Updates. 
This reports that the system is up to date.  How can this be tested as the eBox is a fresh install created May 06 2009 from a CD-ROM burned approximately two weeks ago.   When using an alternative Ubuntu PC apt-get update and upgrade indicates additional packages are available to install.

Installing eBox v 1 from CD-ROM entries are automatically placed in /etc/apt/sources.list referring to the CD-ROM and Ubuntu security repositories.  No other repositories were listed.  Is this correct?

How are updates obtained?  Which repositories are used?

What have I missed?

[SamK]

To add to my earlier post:

Automatic updates are enabled and the software module is enabled but I do not get system, security or eBox updates.  Is there a way of testing this is working correctly?

[poundjd]

Sam,
  Edit the config file and comment out the CDROM lines.
-jeff

[SamK]

Edit the config file and comment out the CDROM lines.

Already done.  I'm stumped.  Did you install from CD-ROM?  If so can you post the content of /etc/apt/sources.list?  I'm not sure what should appear by default.  My installation (done 3 times) only listed Ubuntu security repositories.

[sixstone]

Already done.  I'm stumped.  Did you install from CD-ROM?  If so can you post the content of /etc/apt/sources.list?  I'm not sure what should appear by default.  My installation (done 3 times) only listed Ubuntu security repositories.

This is a known bug and in 1.2 eBox installer it will include standard Ubuntu repositories.

Regarding to software updates, there is a cron job called ebox-software which every midnight tries to download latest updates and install them if they are automatic switch is on. SamK you may want to run it manually using this command:

Code: [Select]

$ sudo ebox-software

Best,

[SamK]

This is a known bug and in 1.2 eBox installer it will include standard Ubuntu repositories.

Thanks for the information sixstone.   

Would you be kind enough to confirm that the repositories listed my post
http://forum.ebox-platform.com/index.php?topic=1260.0   In the section "STAGE 03 - AVAILABILITY", in the code box "Ensure the following entries are listed:" are suitable to be permanently listed in /etc/apt/sources.list.   Do you recommend any other repositories to be permanently listed?

Regarding to software updates, there is a cron job called ebox-software which every midnight tries to download latest updates and install them if they are automatic switch is on.

Understood, I will look into this.

SamK you may want to run it manually using this command:

Code: [Select]

$ sudo ebox-software


Is this the recommended way to apply updates when the automatic switch is off?

[poundjd]

Sam,
I installed from 1.0

Code: [Select]

Last login: Fri May  1 23:11:38 2009 from 192.168.1.143
poundjd@ebox:~$ cat /etc/apt/sources.list
#
# 2009 04 10 JDP -commented cdrom entries from list
#
# deb cdrom:[Ubuntu-Server 8.04.2 _Hardy Heron_ - Release i386 (20090121.1)]/ hardy extras main restricted
# deb cdrom:[Ubuntu-Server 8.04.2 _Hardy Heron_ - Release i386 (20090121.1)]/pool/extras/ /

#deb cdrom:[Ubuntu-Server 8.04.2 _Hardy Heron_ - Release i386 (20090121.1)]/ hardy extras main restricted
#deb cdrom:[Ubuntu-Server 8.04.2 _Hardy Heron_ - Release i386 (20090121.1)]/pool/extras/ /

deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-security main restricted
deb-src http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-security main restricted
deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-security universe
deb-src http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-security universe
deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-security multiverse
deb-src http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-security multiverse
-jeff

[SamK]

Sam,
I installed from 1.0

Jeff, thanks for this.  It is the same as mine.  sixstone has indicated that a bug in this version prevents the standard Ubuntu repositories from being listed.  I have asked him to confirm those used in my guide to creating a lightweight GUI are appropriate.  Once I have this information I will be able to continue testing and will report progress.

[SamK]

The confusion mentioned in the opening post of this thread is now clearing.

A bug in the v 1.0 CD-ROM has the effect of creating an incomplete set of entries in /etc/apt/sources.list.  Only references to the CD-ROM and Security repositories are created by default.  This will be addressed in version 1.2.

A cron job (ebox-software) runs daily at midnight which attempts to locate and download available updates.  When automatic updates are disabled this seems to be functionally equivalent to

Code: [Select]

apt-get update
apt-get upgrade --download-only
The updates are then presented in the eBox Software section for review and installation.

The eBox machine I am currently using is a test rig.  Consequently, it is normally powered down at midnight and never obtained any updates. The result was that eBox software pages reported that the installation was up to date, even though running apt on the same machine indicated package updates were available.

The eBox web-GUI is a little confusing in the Software section;  I offer the following suggestions for consideration:

• Add a button Check for Updates Now.  This will negate the need to run the ebox-software command in a terminal as is required currently.
• Enable the time at which the cron job is run to be changed using the eBox web-GUI.

[poundjd]

Guys, this points out another request for improvement:
     1) The "Run Time" that this update runs should be configurable from the dashboard and a "Run Now" button added as Sam says below.
     2) The "Run Time" for all cron jobs should be configurable, and perhaps a default time settable, as well as "Run Now" buttons, where that makes sense.
     3) A comprehensive list of these types of Assumptions should be developed and made available for configuration.  This is really tough to do, because of the general acceptance in the community in those assumptions is often so strong that they become unconscious and there for very difficult to spot. 

I know that at my house all my automatic updates (that I can configure) are set to run between 3 and 5 am (Local TIme), as we are almost all ways in bed before then, but A friend of mine works third shift and sets all of his updates for 9 am because he is in bed and the kids and wife are out of the house.

...
A cron job (ebox-software) runs daily at midnight which attempts to locate and download available updates. 
...
The eBox web-GUI is a little confusing in the Software section;  I offer the following suggestions for consideration:

• Add a button Check for Updates Now.  This will negate the need to run the ebox-software command in a terminal as is required currently.
• Enable the time at which the cron job is run to be changed using the eBox web-GUI.

-jeff

[Sam Graf]

I find this discussion interesting because I'm not sure what I think about it all. As a [K]Ubuntu desktop user I admit to be completely comfortable with the fixed, nightly update cycle. It's a given -- one of Jeff's assumptions. On the other hand, since Ubuntu works this way out of the box, it's most likely a Windows-think assumption that makes anyone question it.

If absolutely for no other reason, it makes sense to me for open source projects to try to manage bandwidth by staggering updates in a global fashion. That said, unlike eBox, Ubuntu desktop can fetch the package list from the GUI. Since it's not uncommon for a desktop to be shut down at night or, perhaps just as likely, dual booted into another OS, it perhaps makes more sense to have a GUI-accessible update feature than for a server product.

For what it's worth, my own greatest concern is eBox's automatic system update feature. There's no indication, as far as I'm aware, of just what might have been updated, and when. The DansGuardian update from the Ubuntu repos brought down two of my eBoxes, for example. Since I wasn't using the automatic update system, I don't know if eBox would have let me know on the home page that an update error had occurred or not. I might have woke up to two broken networks and had little to no knowledge of what had happened. There is the event system, but I just don't know ... At least with manual updates, I was on hand to witness the issue and so on hand to do whatever I needed (including taking the eBox off line, if necessary) to address any network failures. I'm not even on site every day, and I can't afford the risk of an automatic update breaking things.

For what it's worth ...

[poundjd]

Sam, Good points!  Maybe one approach would be to allow these things to be set to "Manual" as well, with documentation that outlines why it is needed and a suggested schedule.
-jeff

[SamK]

...I admit to be completely comfortable with the fixed, nightly update cycle. It's a given -- one of Jeff's assumptions.

I am also in favour of regular updates.  My suggestions are aimed at the 'fixed' elements.  The updates can only be obtained manually via the command line and the time that they are obtained also cannot be adjusted at the eBox web-GUI.

Two examples by way of illustration:

• When building any computer using either Windows or Linux, applying patches and updates is normally a standard step in the procedure.  Under Windows OSs and Ubuntu Desktop this can be done on demand without resorting to the command line.
  
• IT related tasks are often conducted 'out of office hours'.  Backups are normally scheduled to be conducted when there is little demand on the data sources or network.  The important point here being scheduled.  To fit well with this eBox conducts its own maintenance tasks be run during what may be regarded as 'quiet time' for many operations.  This will vary from user to user.  To be most user friendly the ability to adjust the eBox scheduled tasks (cron) via the web-GUI would seem worthwhile.
  

In my view, both the above correspond well with the eBox philosophy of making the life of the system administrator easier and simpler.

For what it's worth, my own greatest concern is eBox's automatic system update feature. There's no indication, as far as I'm aware, of just what might have been updated, and when. The DansGuardian update from the Ubuntu repos brought down two of my eBoxes, for example.

...I can't afford the risk of an automatic update breaking things.

I fully agree with this.  eBox would be an improved product if it provided an option to indicate the what and when linked to the success or failure of the operation.

Automatic updates may ultimately prove to be the choice selected by most users.  The impact of failures will be reduced for those eBox clients on a paid for contract which includes guaranteed response/fix times.  Other users may accept the impact where fixes provided by eBox staff on the forums is acceptable.  For the remainder the degree of manual control that can be exercised is important.

Maybe one approach would be to allow these things to be set to "Manual" as well, with documentation that outlines why it is needed and a suggested schedule.

I agree with this viewpoint.  Discussions such as this may help influence the way in which eBox develops and matures.

[Sam Graf]

I am also in favour of regular updates.  My suggestions are aimed at the 'fixed' elements.  The updates can only be obtained manually via the command line and the time that they are obtained also cannot be adjusted at the eBox web-GUI.

I see what you're saying about the time. My only point is that this isn't even a stock feature of Ubuntu desktop and so not part of the Ubuntu culture, as such.

The part about "updates can only be obtained manually via the command line" isn't clear to me. I commented out the CD-ROM references and added a single line to sources.list (found in these forums) and with that I pretty much let eBox tell me what's available for updates. I use the command line only in rare special cases. So I must be missing something here.

To be most user friendly the ability to adjust the eBox scheduled tasks (cron) via the web-GUI would seem worthwhile.

I do see the point. Again, I'm undecided about this just because it's not part of the stock Ubuntu experience, not on the desktop and, as far as I can see, not something offered during server setup. I don't mean to say by that that there is no benefit to the suggestion, only that it's not necessarily a weakness of eBox if it does not support easy package list fetch scheduling, since Ubuntu itself doesn't either. Maybe there is simply no felt need in Ubuntu-think for this type of functionality. That is, if it were a normal part of Ubuntu server (or desktop for that matter) to make it easy to schedule the package list fetch for update purposes (a la Windows) and eBox left that functionality out, I think I would look at it differently. That's all.

Not that I necessarily see agreeing with Ubuntu-think as the default correct course of action, of course ... but working in Ubuntu while thinking in Windows just makes the obtuse world of Linux all the more obscure to a simple and aging mind like mine.

[SamK]

The part about "updates can only be obtained manually via the command line" isn't clear to me.
...
I use the command line only in rare special cases. So I must be missing something here.

Perhaps another example might help clarify my point.

When conducting troubleshooting, having the most up to date versions of the software installed is a frequent recommendation.  Currently this is done in two ways:

• Wait for eBox to reach the appointed time to download (and possibly install them).  This may not be helpful in achieving an immediate diagnosis.
  
• Force an immediate download of pending updates. 

sixstone has advised that the way to achieve the forced download is to run

Code: [Select]

sudo ebox-software

This command simply runs the cron job (which is scheduled for midnight each day) that downloads and optionally installs the updates.  The point being that the functionality to obtain updates on demand already exists within eBox, it is simply not accessible via the web-GUI; hence my suggestion to include a button, Check for Updates Now. 

The suggestion is not intended to replace the scheduled update function but to enhance eBox's user friendliness at a minimal programming cost.

To be most user friendly the ability to adjust the eBox scheduled tasks (cron) via the web-GUI would seem worthwhile.

I do see the point. Again, I'm undecided about this just because it's not part of the stock Ubuntu experience...

In an earlier post I made reference to IT tasks being conducted 'out of office hours' and during 'quiet time'.  The number of maintenance/housekeeping tasks to run during these periods can often lead to the position where the time available is entirely (or almost entirely) used.  The usual answer is to carefully stage/schedule these tasks to obtain the 'best fit'.  In these circumstances, achieving a balance of conflicting demands is necessary.

Presently eBox runs its updating task at midnight each day.  This takes no account of whatever else may be happening in the machine or LAN.  If this is updating task a fixed timing event, it is possible that the only solution available to the system administrator is to attempt to reschedule all the other scheduled tasks to accommodate eBox.

The ability to modify the eBox scheduled tasks via it web-GUI seems desirable and will again enhance its user friendliness.

My initial suggestion related only to obtaining updates, however if my understanding is correct, Jeff extended the argument to include a wider range of eBox scheduled tasks.

...
     3) A comprehensive list of these types of Assumptions should be developed and made available for configuration.  This is really tough to do, because of the general acceptance in the community in those assumptions is often so strong that they become unconscious and there for very difficult to spot.

This does seem helpful in balancing competing demands in a wider network scenario.


Off Topic

...to a simple and aging mind like mine.

One that is sharp and self evidently able to contribute well constructed points.  Perhaps not that simple or old.