What is the Zentyal Desktop

[ichat]

i took that example because with  webapplications the  line between services provided by the server opterating system  and the applications (webscripts), running atop them  is that obvious 

i for one never really understood what semi-insane (figuratively speeking ofource) person came up with the  allmost-absurd idea to create a debian package for joomla  and thus making it possible to: sudo ap-get install  joomla,   where from my prespective you should  either     move the zip to the webfolder and run install.php     or you should use a tool like fantastico,  installatron  or what-ya-ma-call-it...  the same principle should apply to zentyal. 

but this deviding between server, and data, doesn't just apply to a webserver module. these development principles can go way beyond that...  take juju for example...  but that, topic i leave to people more capable (experienced) of explaining how configuration management works...

this, however should not mean, that we can affort to created endlless possiblilies..  because flexibillitie always comes at the price of software becomming inmensly complex to manage,   and i for one am under the impression that the key selling point of zentyal is that its easy to navigate and mange.    else you might just as well run  gentoo...  or  Linux From Scratch

[stuartiannaylor]

I am still slightly confused though. I am joining in with the discussion though.

Its another one of those where I come from an opposite position than what I perceive the community does.
Honest guys apologies about this but if you think about all those devices, phones, tablets, android, ubuntu, windows, mac...

Then I have always wondered why the "Zentyal Desktop" at all?

It sort of goes back into your thread iChat and that is SSO with web apps and Zentyal is purely a server.
I like Ubuntu and that would be my desktop.

If I am going to provide for the client and its important to say client as a desktop is very hazy nowadays.

In the 80/20 rule web apps already provide solutions for most business operations. Yes you can argue they don't have all
the functionality of distributed desktop apps. For many they are good enough and with the advent of newer technologies such as HTML5... it is becoming harder to distinguish feature differences.
Then you gain the advantages of a centralised private cloud with no need for roll out.
The admin cost of the clients due to numbers is always problematic and this provides a strong argument for the web app.

For email we could have Zarafa, Sogo...
CRM SugarCRM, Vtiger
....
There are web apps for practically every sphere of business activity nowadays.

So this brings me to developers providing Zentyal modules for easy configuration into a standard model.

Stuart

 

[ichat]

why do you create a management interface webgui while the cli and the .conf files are so mutch more versatile,  in fact they are soo verry good, that  even though  databases exist now that are so powerfull, yet still they use  these textfiles.   so far we stand, in a everlasting dilemma user-friendlyness versus feature-completness ...
one of those aspects is providing a base image,  an example, and a solid stable rocksolid desktop experience.

why doesn't cononcial add xfce kde  and  gnome3 shell to ubuntu, rather than letting other people add these. it is because of simplicity,  "its not impossible to add direrent desktops,  its just not default"

the same applies to why ebox tech shouldn't  add sogo, e-groupware and other zarafa alternatives. or provide 5 diferent jabber serviers,  4 diferent firewall's,   and other  such diversity. in the end zentyal will only be much less userfriendly.

the other question i would like to stress is why do you want a community repository  or a bazaar so mutch, while in fact, as of yet we havn't seen a single community developped zentyal-module.  and even if there was one, adding a personall ppa (personal package  archive), to the end user is as simple as

Code: [Select]

sudo add-apt-repository ppa://username/package/tree im not saying that this should be forever, but should we spend time developing a system, that will not serve a function.
    still from my perspective, there are so many things that could be improved,  lets start with the most pressing ones first. and have the nicities wait a little while longer.

[stuartiannaylor]

why do you create a management interface webgui while the cli and the .conf files are so mutch more versatile,  in fact they are soo verry good, that  even though  databases exist now that are so powerfull, yet still they use  these textfiles.   so far we stand, in a everlasting dilemma user-friendlyness versus feature-completness ...
one of those aspects is providing a base image,  an example, and a solid stable rocksolid desktop experience.

So are you saying Zentyal was a bad idea from the start? That they should of never built the Administration on top of web technologies.

why doesn't cononcial add xfce kde  and  gnome3 shell to ubuntu, rather than letting other people add these. it is because of simplicity,  "its not impossible to add direrent desktops,  its just not default"

Ubuntu has many different flavours and is very much about choice . You don't even need to add different desktops as you can have different desktops. Open-office, Libre-Office... Look at the software repository and you will see for practically every type of application logic the software repository offers competing choice.

the same applies to why ebox tech shouldn't  add sogo, e-groupware and other zarafa alternatives. or provide 5 diferent jabber serviers,  4 diferent firewall's,   and other  such diversity. in the end zentyal will only be much less userfriendly.

the other question i would like to stress is why do you want a community repository  or a bazaar so mutch, while in fact, as of yet we havn't seen a single community developped zentyal-module.  and even if there was one, adding a personall ppa (personal package  archive), to the end user is as simple as

Code: [Select]

sudo add-apt-repository ppa://username/package/tree im not saying that this should be forever, but should we spend time developing a system, that will not serve a function.
    still from my perspective, there are so many things that could be improved,  lets start with the most pressing ones first. and have the nicities wait a little while longer.

Firstly you have proposed that Zentyal should become a locked product in the style of M$. Before I state that the whole reason that I am here is because I have found closed software environment restrictive. What you have just said goes against the whole building blocks of open-source and freedom.

Freedom is about end user choice and not software supplier dictate. Wow Zentyal-M$

Also looking in general at what zentyal is. Its doesn't have direct comparisons to what ubuntu desktop is. Zentyal is a collection of web modules that allow easy install and administration of leading open source server applications.
Your argument would suggest that this direction is wrong ?

This argument is so chicken and egg that I don't have any hair left. If you don't provide a Bazaar or Marketplace then there isn't a natural place for developer products to reside. Also any developer product is clubbed by the dictate of preordained default applications.

I have been arguing that certain applications are not core server applications say Zarafa, Jabber, Asterisk. I have been arguing that applications of this style should be removed from the core. They should be placed in a Bazaar / marketplace and have individual licensing and subscription plans. This also could increase Zentyals possible revenue, whilst creating more choice and reducing core costs to the end user.

[stuartiannaylor]

I am replying to myself under the fear that this will probably be moderated, deleted or in someway locked.

Hopefully under a discussion forum this will be allowed to proceed.

I feel Zentyal should be concentrating on core standards and methodologies to make Zentyal a common core platform.
If it does that then the possibilities of Zentyal's core worth are huge.

If Zentyal gave the gift of a platform and community and bazaar that was integrated into the product then this would provide a super simplistic method for the sysadmin of any level.

The mechanisms are simple, the platforms are simple and by providing centralised services Zentyal could make revenue and the community could be self funding.

http://forum.zentyal.org/index.php/topic,11879.msg48450.html#msg48450

There are some ideas and they are really easy to accomplish. Like the above thread for some reason any effort to discuss seems to result in a singular action.

I would really like to see the developer section flourish and this needs much more work in the developer offerings.
I am scared that Zentyal is rushing ahead on providing a monolithic product and dictating this is how it is.
If this is so then further products by Zentyal or third parties will struggle due to the spaghetti of forcing a dictated system.
Is it just me or does anyone else see the analogies to M$ here ?

The above link is an idea on where community, contribution, bazaar and openness in a meritocracy can be easily achieved.
If Zentyal gave those gifts then the wealth that the community could provide would be massive.

Stuart

Why can we not just discuss?
   

[ichat]

actually - your now false-quoting me... (ergo:  making me say things that i have not said)...

im not saying that zentyal is a bad idea,  i saying that there is a reason other than, being the best possible, most configurable,  management interface out there,  witch is user friendlyness,  because however virsatile the /etc/ is its not verry easy to use and getting a clear view on what you are trying to accomplish  is near to imposible for non geek users...  so building zentyal as it is today is perfectly valid,  and the fact that im here should say that i agree to it and support it all the way.

seccondly your saying there there are a lot of ubuntu's  witch absolutely is NOT true,  there is only 1 ubuntu and that is ubuntu, all the others like xubuntu  kubuntu  lubuntu   mediabuntu  xbmcbubtu  linux mint  and probably a few i have forgot to mention  are all spinn-offs  not supported by cononical, they are supported and maintained by 100%-nonprofit-opensource communities,  and the only support they get from cononical is that  IF the packages are stable enought they can be included in the main repository.  and if not, they should maintain their own (ppa).

thats it there is not officially supported  kde version of ubuntu  there has been for many years but even cononical understood that it created to mutch overhead so they stopped it... speeking about it kubuntu had allways been a farce anyway,  it was never as good (finetuned and developed) as the gnome version,   project like suse, did a mutch better job in creating the perfect kde-based desktop experience... 

next you say that, ubuntu supports so many applications in its app center,  and your just about right,  but did you ever get a canonical subscription, and did you ever try to get support deploying and managing openbox desktops ... instead of  unity. what you where trying to make me say is that
 openoffice is to ubuntu,   what  captive-portal, samba4 or the network-module    are to zentyal.  and again thats simply not true...   these are core-components to a zentyal server, just like   the ubuntu software center,  unity,  or aptitude   are core ellements of ubuntu... 

sure you can replace  apt  with yum,   but you could hardly speek of it as ubuntu can you?

from the last but not least part of your argument,  im really suspecting a bunch of  FUD here.

you claim that zarafa isn't  part of a core smallbuisyness network,  but how can you say that as increasing number of offices try to become paperless, so email, shared documents, calendars and addresbooks etc become ever more important.  yest you can argue that zarafa can be replaced by phpgroupware/e-groupware  zimbra or  openchange. but that is a buisiness discussion, and in my opinion if you have problems with it, or dont whant it should be your stake on the negotiation table when trying to get a larger discount from ebox, for your client,  and should not be  part of the community debate,  not untill moving zarafa away from the core is a logical next step that suits everyone, not just your own buisiness plan.   

you say that its chicken and egg,   i say that it is,  fighting a war that hasn't even been started yet...  are you actually going to use nuclear weapons on india just because in a vision (premenition) you saw that the next great hitler might be born there in 50 years from now?  - i hope not...

if you want to add new zentyal modules like e-groupware  go ahead  register for a launchpad account here and create your own  ppa  your packages will be very easy to install from there...

^{update: correcte some spelling}

[stuartiannaylor]

you say that its chicken and egg,   i say that it is,  fighting a war that hasn't even been started yet...  are you actually going to use nuclear weapons on india just because in a vision (premenition) you saw that the next great hitler might be born there in 50 years from now?  - i hope not...

iChat I honestly haven't got a clue to what you are on about.

I am talking about utilising the smite & applaud so that you can vote for members and content.
Its a simple method of stressing to members that good content should be voted for as much as bad content.

Zentyal then provide a leaderboard of members and a leaderboard of content.

That is a simple reflection of what the community believes is of value.

It also provides a natural meritocracy.

As for fifty years no it should of been now as its simple and the technology platforms are abundant.

Its that simplistic really and contributor licensing could be applied to the Top * that Zentyal see fit.

[stuartiannaylor]

-snip offtopic

- if a message is getting moderated it is not done to repost the message. In ANY community the right approach is to get in contact with the moderator.

Considering it is you and I think this is totally unfair and that the permissions to send a message has been turned off.
In a similar way the permissions to post documentation in trac.

I am not going to have private messages with you on Skype as requested rob.
It should be public and transparent and honest.
Which it isn't

[stuartiannaylor]

actually - your now false-quoting me... (ergo:  making me say things that i have not said)...

im not saying that zentyal is a bad idea,  i saying that there is a reason other than, being the best possible, most configurable,  management interface out there,  witch is user friendlyness,  because however virsatile the /etc/ is its not verry easy to use and getting a clear view on what you are trying to accomplish  is near to imposible for non geek users...  so building zentyal as it is today is perfectly valid,  and the fact that im here should say that i agree to it and support it all the way.

seccondly your saying there there are a lot of ubuntu's  witch absolutely is NOT true,  there is only 1 ubuntu and that is ubuntu, all the others like xubuntu  kubuntu  lubuntu   mediabuntu  xbmcbubtu  linux mint  and probably a few i have forgot to mention  are all spinn-offs  not supported by cononical, they are supported and maintained by 100%-nonprofit-opensource communities,  and the only support they get from cononical is that  IF the packages are stable enought they can be included in the main repository.  and if not, they should maintain their own (ppa).

thats it there is not officially supported  kde version of ubuntu  there has been for many years but even cononical understood that it created to mutch overhead so they stopped it... speeking about it kubuntu had allways been a farce anyway,  it was never as good (finetuned and developed) as the gnome version,   project like suse, did a mutch better job in creating the perfect kde-based desktop experience... 

next you say that, ubuntu supports so many applications in its app center,  and your just about right,  but did you ever get a canonical subscription, and did you ever try to get support deploying and managing openbox desktops ... instead of  unity. what you where trying to make me say is that
 openoffice is to ubuntu,   what  captive-portal, samba4 or the network-module    are to zentyal.  and again thats simply not true...   these are core-components to a zentyal server, just like   the ubuntu software center,  unity,  or aptitude   are core ellements of ubuntu... 

sure you can replace  apt  with yum,   but you could hardly speek of it as ubuntu can you?

This is absolute rubbish if you look at the original post I quoted and highlighted everything you said verbatim. I started every statement with a question of that are you saying?
Somehow you turn this round that I am miss quoting you and saying false assumptions. They where questions then you reply saying something totally different.

you claim that zarafa isn't  part of a core smallbuisyness network,  but how can you say that as increasing number of offices try to become paperless, so email, shared documents, calendars and addresbooks etc become ever more important.  yest you can argue that zarafa can be replaced by phpgroupware/e-groupware  zimbra or  openchange. but that is a buisiness discussion, and in my opinion if you have problems with it, or dont whant it should be your stake on the negotiation table when trying to get a larger discount from ebox, for your client,  and should not be  part of the community debate,  not untill moving zarafa away from the core is a logical next step that suits everyone, not just your own buisiness plan.   

I don't claim anything I am discussing my opinion that software should be about choice and that maybe certain applications are not natural core elements of a server. I am trying to have a discussion.
Its about giving the choice and basically say that I should shut up because all I am doing is trying to reduce my own financial costs and should negotiate a discount.
You totally miss the point and say the community should not be able to discuss what and how in there opinion they would like there software?

from the last but not least part of your argument,  im really suspecting a bunch of  FUD here.

That is just trolling.